Pioneer

[Kamarag]

Where are you getting your information? I am a former director of Pioneer, and obviously closely associated with Roman, the former (and original) Division II-III coordinator? Perhaps I'm missing information that you have. Please explain further.

Taught an Open corps in 2009 and have had extensive conversations regarding the admin/financial end of things as a result of the WC evaluation process. I can also read what corps directors like Randy Blackburn, Bob Jacobs and Tom Maiello have written about the subject.

[jwscv87]

In YOUR opinion, that's what Open Class is for.

I think the larger problem is that some people posting in this thread actually (though likely unintentionally) view Open Class as a step "down," with a presumed general purpose somehow tangibly different than that of the World Class corps. Where did those presumptions come from anyway? Look at some of the comments posted here, this is true classism in every sense of the word (valuing one class over another), even though I assume the intent is not to devalue one competitive class against another. I don't recall there being any stated/specified distinction in purpose between the two classes beyond the touring aspects of DCI's participating corps, though I could be wrong about that.

Yesterday's preliminary event reminded us (or made some people aware for the first time), that performance quality has little to do with why we have separate classes in drum corps. The classes afford the corps the ability to be compared to other corps with similar size or participant commitment responsibilities. Both of those issues do not speak to talent level or performance quality, though there are naturally obvious correlations.

Those that actually spend time in the Open Class ranks know that the talent levels found in World Class can be found all over the Open Class ranks as well. Anyone that knows much about competitive drum corps would look at Pioneer (if they actually bothered to objectively watch the corps) and see that Pioneer is in no way a "bad" drum corps. They do not embarrass themselves in the quality of their presentations no more so than any of the Open Class corps that they "defeated" competitively on Thursday, or any of the corps that are ranked competitively higher. Yet, we talk about Pioneer as if they somehow don't "fit" a model of what we perceive they should be. What they don't "fit" is our own perceptions of what a World Class corps should be. Thankfully, the corps does not make its decisions for existence or operations based upon the perceptions of others, and I pray that they don't choose to do so in the future. I suspect that if they choose to operate based upon what others think is best, they'll quickly go the way of others corps that no longer exist. Pioneer's existence in World Class is one of financial stability more than anything else. They can't afford to exist in Open Class, since the Open Class corps receive NO MONEY for their participation in DCI, whereas the Wold Class corps receive appearance fees.

Anyway, here's an example of how illogical we've gotten with our perceptions of the quality of drum corps, based upon classes:

Why do we afford accolades to Music City (an outstanding organization, and a huge and outstanding drum corps in 2011), while spousing such pessimism about Pioneer, even though Pioneer "beat" Music City in the competitive arena? Music City isn't good "for an Open Class corps," they're actually good because they practice hard and perform well. Pioneer isn't bad "for a World Class corps," they're actually good because they practice hard and perform well. Pioneer happened to outscore Music City yesterday, but our discussion is slanted toward their deficiencies, while the Music City discussion is slanted toward their assets. We make our "good vs. bad" assessments because we presume that any World Class corps should "beat" an Open Class corps, because World Class "should be better" than Open Class. But the fact is, if you take away the "classism," and the presumptive, false expectations associated with the competitive classes, you would just see two great drum corps with kids, staff, and supporters that are doing positive things for everyone, and performing remarkable presentations from an entertainment and quality of product perspective.

As spectators, we've placed our own value exchange on the competitive classes, and we begin to think and act (i.e. post comments on DCP, attend Open Class or World Class events, buy corps T-shirts, etc.) based upon our presumptions of the value of either competitive class. Likewise, Pioneer has placed a value exchange on everything it does for its members, and it likewise thinks and acts accordingly, based upon what it deems best for its participants in regard to the corps' purpose and mission.

If over the past eight years the judges subjectively decided to consistently place Pioneer one tenth (.1) above the second or third corps from the bottom of the competitive World Class ranks, we wouldn't be having this discussion about Pioneer. One tenth difference above the bottom few corps is all it would take to shift this discussion to some other corps than Pioneer. In the minds of some, that's what separates Pioneer's "worthiness" to be called a World Class corps vs. the argument for them to move "down" to a "lower class" of competitive corps... one tenth.

People involved with Pioneer know who they are and what their purpose is as an organization. They'll make decisions in their own best interest as they deem appropriate. If any of us could do better (and sustain our effort for 50 years) there would be a lot more drum corps in existence today. It's a lot easier to evaluate and criticize on DCP than it is to actually do the work of sustaining a youth development organization and a competitive drum corps in the 21st Century, so Pioneer spends its time serving kids (and succeeding in their effort), and we spend out time discussing them behind our computer screens. Does Pioneer have a "problem," or are some of US the problem in how we perceive who Pioneer is and their value to the drum corps community?

Congratulations Pioneer on another successful season... your 50th! You had a GREAT show on Thursday, and I personally am looking forward to what's next!

I think the post you quoted was really in poor taste, but I think your general reaction to those of us that talk about the competitive differences in the classes is really mis-guided.

The classes exist to create some level of competitive balance. It is the reality in competitive activities all over the place. Acknowledging that there are differences is hardly elitism or classism and it certainly does not imply any sense of a value judgement, good vs. bad, as you suggest. I marched 7 years in drum corps at every level of competitve classes. I appreciated that fact that there were appropriate classes available to all corps. That was/is a good thing IMO.

As it relates to Pioneer, it doesn't matter a hill of beans to me which class they are in. As a fan in the stands I will enjoy their performance whether they are labeled Open or World. I know nothing of the financial implications. I just think as a performer/competitor it would be more fun going on tour competing against several corps nigh in and night out who are similar in their competitive capabilities.

[PioneerWebmaster]

Taught an Open corps in 2009 and have had extensive conversations regarding the admin/financial end of things as a result of the WC evaluation process. I can also read what corps directors like Randy Blackburn, Bob Jacobs and Tom Maiello have written about the subject.

I have done my homework and...

You are correct: In shows where an Open Class corps appears with World Class corps, they are paid an appearance fee. That fee, however, is less than half of what Pioneer is getting paid right now. In that respect, there are financial implications involved right there with possibly going Open Class. Combine that with the fact that Open Class corps do not get to as many shows as World Class corps, and the financial gap widens even more (not to mention a diminished touring opportunity).

For stand alone Open Class shows, there is no appearance fee. As a result, the DCI contract amount for hosting an Open Class show is much smaller than a World Class show... Which ultimately is what makes those shows possible.

[Pioneersop98]

Good - we have someone here who was there back then.

In your opinion, why aren't they getting the same membership these days? You were there - what is different now?

I can only guess that several seasons of placing last or close to last combined with the close proximity of so many other corps who aren't placing so low (Madison, Blue Stars, Colts, Cavaliers, etc.) puts a damper on the recruiting.

[Kansan]

I have done my homework and...

You are correct: In shows where an Open Class corps appears with World Class corps, they are paid an appearance fee. That fee, however, is less than half of what Pioneer is getting paid right now. In that respect, there are financial implications involved right there with possibly going Open Class. Combine that with the fact that Open Class corps do not get to as many shows as World Class corps, and the financial gap widens even more (not to mention a diminished touring opportunity).

For stand alone Open Class shows, there is no appearance fee. As a result, the DCI contract amount for hosting an Open Class show is much smaller than a World Class show... Which ultimately is what makes those shows possible.

In '08 the DCI fee was $15,000 to Host a World Class Show and $7,000 to host an Open Class Show.

[Kansan]

I can only guess that several seasons of placing last or close to last combined with the close proximity of so many other corps who aren't placing so low (Madison, Blue Stars, Colts, Cavaliers, etc.) puts a damper on the recruiting.

They could move to Kansas City and have access to Kansas City Missouri Metro Area with a population of 1 million and the Kansas City Kansas/Johnson County, KS side with a population of over 500,000. They could Draw from Nebraska and Oklahoma as well.

[dcikon2]

Personally, I don't think a lot of schools in Kansas would support a drum corps. Though the attitude is changing, I don't feel most marching bands in Johnson County would encourage students to march in a drum corps. I think it would be even more difficult to recruit students to march in a lower tier corps. Yes, the DCI show is well attended, but how many directors encourage members to attend DCI events at theaters? I do know that there are a few students marching in the area marching in WC corps. I would like to see this increase. Perhaps this will change with the Colts now holding auditions in Lawrence.

[Kansan]

Personally, I don't think a lot of schools in Kansas would support a drum corps. Though the attitude is changing, I don't feel most marching bands in Johnson County would encourage students to march in a drum corps. I think it would be even more difficult to recruit students to march in a lower tier corps. Yes, the DCI show is well attended, but how many directors encourage members to attend DCI events at theaters? I do know that there are a few students marching in the area marching in WC corps. I would like to see this increase. Perhaps this will change with the Colts now holding auditions in Lawrence.

I know Olathe has a couple Band Directors who encourage their kids to go the the KC Drum Corps Show which was held in Olathe, KS this year. Yea, maybe the band directors would rather their kids go to drum corps after graduation.

The Summer between High School and College is a good time to do Drum Corps. I think the fear of the Band Directors is Drum Corps will ruin their kids enthusiasm for High School Band. It probably would as I've seen that happen. It's hard marching in Band after marching Drum Corps. The theatre last night had a lot of High School kids. I saw the most of the Blue Valley North West band there enjoying the show with their Band Director.

Most of the Bands in the area finished Band Camp this week so Drum Corps would not be conducive to band participation.

[perc2100]

I am not going to speculate about anything that is going on with Pioneer. I marched Pioneer from 1994-1998. As an alumni of the corps it is time for me to stop saying "what is wrong with the corps", and start saying "what can I do to help the corps". Most people on dcp give their 30 second answer of how Pioneer can be fixed, and then don't think about the corps again until the next thread comes up.

I have briefly spoken to Roman a few times this summer and have told him I am ready to help out the corps any way I can in 2012. If they need me to cook, I will cook. If they need me to recruit, I will recruit. More alumni (especially from the 90's) need to step up and start getting their hands dirty in an effort to help the corps. I don't know if "I" can make a difference, but I would bet that me and 20 folks I marched with CAN make a difference. Here's hoping my fellow alumni and I can make the 2012 version of Pioneer a stronger group than the 2011 version.

Mike Zerhusen

Pioneer bari/euph 94-98

"Better Everyday"

This is the best attitude possible for ANYONE that is truly wanting Pioneer to be better next season, and I just want to add my $.02 on this approach.

My corps was around a little bit before DCI. They started very small in Div. 3, slowly built/improved/grew to perennial Div. 2/3 Finalists, barely missed out on winning DCI Div. 2 (to Pioneer), made the move to World Class & was a hair away from making World Finals once or twice. Then, for whatever reasons, the corps regressed, pretty much across the board. The talent level coming to camps shrunk, fewer people were interested in marching the corps, there were financial problems, and within just four years the corps went form its most successful season ever to missing Semifinals by quite a bit. In less than ten total years the corps went from its most successful season to folding.

While there are a plethora of reasons why the corps is no longer active (and will not be back short of a miracle), and while I did try to help when the corps was regressing, often I agonize and think, "what more could I have done in order to keep my corps active." It's unpleasant to see your corps placing consistently at the bottom of the pack: it is depressing to talk about your corps in the past tense, knowing you'll never see them take the field ever again.

I can't stress enough that if you don't like the direction of your corps you owe it to them to get off the internet and help: do more than post criticism & ideas. Call the director, volunteer, ask what you can do. Do anything in your power to help ensure that future generations will learn the same traditions, have the same experiences, and gain the same benefits you did.

[brassensemble]

The Board of Directors continue to ignore the 800 pound elephant in the room. Pioneer needs a change at the top.

Whose Board of Directors are you referring to? If it is Pioneer's Board, I, as a member, personally invite you to come and state your case!

What are your "objective" reasons to support your calling for any change at the top?

Are they based on how you were treated as a member of the corps?

Are they based on your current knowledge as to today's internal functioning and operations of the Pioneer Corps?

Are they based based purely on the numerical placing of the corps?

If you were or are ashamed of having been a Pioneer, I pity you! The thought of you questioning Roman's ability to lead makes me wonder your real objectives. If you really cared, wouldn't you be helping out your corps and showing positive support rather than back-stabbing the very one who gave you so much, who for you and many others has gone way above and beyond the norm?

If you actually saw the corps performance in quarterfinals (DID YOU???), I do not know how you could ridicule the corps director's leadership abililty of successfully putting together a highly respectable and entertaining product. He developed an excellent teaching staff, and under his leadership we recruited a corps made up of many new members who bonded together giving it their all as Proud Pioneer. We are so very proud of them. Roman's leadership by example is the glue that secures that bond.

I am sure that our members are highly offended by a Pioneer alumnus biting the hand of the very person who gave him the many opportunities to learn and experience drum corps, both musically and socially.

Yes, Bal, our members are very disappointed that the scoring did not reflect the the musical and visual progress of your Pioneer Corps, but they are exteremely proud of each other and their Pioneer Corps Family. Degrading statements about any of our staff, members, or management, only serve to try and break the bond of our (your) Pioneer family. I hope that is not your intention.

I am sure that our members are highly offended by a Pioneer alumnus biting the hand of the very person who gave him the many opportunities to learn, grow, in an experience drum corps environment, both musically and socially.

What is the "800 pound elephant in the room" that you refer to? If it refers to all of Roman's fine efforts of sincerely caring for each and every member, giving them a fine instructional staff and an entertaining show for them to perform, you fail to see the corps activity primarily being that of a musical youth activity for the benefit of each and every one of those young members. That is more important than mere numbers or standings. Don't get me wrong, we value being competitive, but the prime focus is on each and every member, far more important than status or numbers.

So please, if you have anything constructive to say, please do. Would you like to be part of our alumni association? Would you like to come and offer some positive ideas to our board? Would you like to come and be of help during camps, everydays, or during the season? If so, call or email me. I would like for you to see and witness for yourself what our current staff, management team, and members are doing to make your Pioneer Corps truly, "Better Every Day!"

Murray

dbcpmilw@execpc.com

414-327-2847