Stu Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I just would really like to know when the kids who have money owed to them will be refunded.................or am I being too optimistic? This is a new twist. Were you over-charged? Were you promised a refund and never received it? Please expand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 A parent who continued to support such a corps for all those years, knowing from the first year how bad it was being financially managed, bears no responsibility at all in this situation? Really? Here is my serious question: Can you not see that this information where you helped enable the corps to run in this manner for four years (which, by the way, you should have released within the original tirade in this thread) actually taints your credibility of claiming that that this is a problem created "solely" by the Revolution Administration? So now the donors are "enablers"? Let me ask you a question. How is a donor, parent....anybody....supposed to know how well managed a drum corps is? They're not in the boardroom. Should they base their presumptions exclusively on whether or not the corps asks for donations in mid-season? Judging from the number of corps with donation jars on their booster tables (i.e. all of them), that method will provide zero information. I've seen the "give us money now, or we'll fold!" approach from corps at all levels, including our most recent DCI world-class champions. Are all drum corps, therefore, mismanaged? Drum corps costs money. Lots of it. More so today than ever. One could argue, in fact, that the decision to operate a drum corps today is financially irresponsible to begin with. Makes it hard to determine precisely where to draw the line between win/fail for a corps administrator. Certainly, there's some value in discussing the pros/cons of fiscal policies in the vicinity of that line....but not when the discussion extrapolates to the point of branding parents, donors or others outside of the corps administration as "enablers". We all know that no corps makes enough money to cover their expenses even if every kid pays their dues in full, and that as a result, every corps raises funds through a variety of charitable solicitations to balance their budgets. Some are clever fee-for-service or product sales programs; some are targeted toward corporate/institutional sponsors; others are just charitable gaming, raffles or 50-50 drawings; and sometimes corps just plain ask for donations. Some such solicitations are in better taste than others....but they are all, in the end, just different ways of begging for money. Looking for "enablers". And to all those "enablers", including the big equipment suppliers with their sponsorships and endorsements, the corporate donors, the Friends of DCI, the corps staffers that hand a paycheck back to the corps, parents of corps members or alumni who volunteer, donate, or sponsor other marchers, the corps members themselves who work fundraisers, or anyone who drops a few coins in one of those "fuel fund" jars, I just want to say.... Thank you for enabling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) So now the donors are "enablers"? Let me ask you a question. How is a donor, parent....anybody....supposed to know how well managed a drum corps is? They're not in the boardroom. Should they base their presumptions exclusively on whether or not the corps asks for donations in mid-season? Judging from the number of corps with donation jars on their booster tables (i.e. all of them), that method will provide zero information. I've seen the "give us money now, or we'll fold!" approach from corps at all levels, including our most recent DCI world-class champions. Are all drum corps, therefore, mismanaged? Drum corps costs money. Lots of it. More so today than ever. One could argue, in fact, that the decision to operate a drum corps today is financially irresponsible to begin with. Makes it hard to determine precisely where to draw the line between win/fail for a corps administrator. Certainly, there's some value in discussing the pros/cons of fiscal policies in the vicinity of that line....but not when the discussion extrapolates to the point of branding parents, donors or others outside of the corps administration as "enablers". We all know that no corps makes enough money to cover their expenses even if every kid pays their dues in full, and that as a result, every corps raises funds through a variety of charitable solicitations to balance their budgets. Some are clever fee-for-service or product sales programs; some are targeted toward corporate/institutional sponsors; others are just charitable gaming, raffles or 50-50 drawings; and sometimes corps just plain ask for donations. Some such solicitations are in better taste than others....but they are all, in the end, just different ways of begging for money. Looking for "enablers". And to all those "enablers", including the big equipment suppliers with their sponsorships and endorsements, the corporate donors, the Friends of DCI, the corps staffers that hand a paycheck back to the corps, parents of corps members or alumni who volunteer, donate, or sponsor other marchers, the corps members themselves who work fundraisers, or anyone who drops a few coins in one of those "fuel fund" jars, I just want to say.... Thank you for enabling. > How is a donor, parent....anybody....supposed to know how well managed a drum corps is? Easy; just ask to see the revenue/expenditures and 990. They are public record due to the organization being a 501c3. > Should they base their presumptions exclusively on whether or not the corps asks for donations in mid-season? Not necessarily; 501c3 organizations can have funding drives anytime of the year. > I've seen the "give us money now, or we'll fold!" approach from corps at all levels. That approach, especially using the word "now", is an indicator that the organization is either being mismanaged or just had some sort of dire emergency. Either way it is the responsibility of the donor to find out exactly why the organization needs it "right now" or they will have to fold. > Are all drum corps, therefore, mismanaged? Not all, but most corps over the years, unfortunately, are or have been mismanaged. The main reason is that they are or were being ran by (no offense) artistic or academic people not business people. A responsible business person would not, for example, hope to pay for outstanding bills based off of future performer dues while the corps is running in the red out on tour using the irresponsible phrase, "We will do this for the sake of the kids so that they can experience marching all shows and finals". And, sad to say, hundreds of corps have gone belly up for that very reason. > Drum corps costs money. Lots of it. More so today than ever. True > One could argue, in fact, that the decision to operate a drum corps today is financially irresponsible to begin with. Not true; any entity that is ran in the black is being responsible; any entity that is being ran in the red and not able to pay outstanding bills is being irresponsible. This would apply to drum corps or any other entity. > Makes it hard to determine precisely where to draw the line between win/fail for a corps administrator. Not at all; this is where many corps admins get it wrong because this is "not" about art, music, or marching but about fiscal responsibility nothing more. Stay in the Black = Win, go into the Red = Fail. Administration should "only" concern themselves with financial stability, securing the right people for the positions, and operating the organization in a fiscally responsible manner; the Design and Instructional staff should be the ones focusing on the marching and artistic competitive side. > Certainly, there's some value in discussing the pros/cons of fiscal policies in the vicinity of that line....but not when the discussion extrapolates to the point of branding parents, donors or others outside of the corps administration as "enablers". Then what other word would you call people who "knowingly" continue give money to a fiscally irresponsible organization? And in this case the person who continued to give "admittedly" knew about the repeated fiscal mismanagement problems for four years yet still continued to hand over money. > We all know that no corps makes enough money to cover their expenses... Again not true; I suggest that you do some research because you will certainly find corps that never go into the Red; they place fiscal responsibility above artistic competition. Most people just do not give any credence to these corps because they are not "winners" in the field of competition; they choose fiscal responsibility over making the top twelve or winning the ring which keeps them from catching the eye of most people. > ... even if every kid pays their dues in full. Any corps that is creating expenditures planning on the promise of future dues collection is not being ran in a fiscally responsible manner. A sound business person as an administrator would never allow that to happen. This is where many corps get into trouble. > corps raise funds through a variety of charitable solicitations to balance their budgets. Some are clever fee-for-service or product sales programs; some are targeted toward corporate/institutional sponsors; others are just charitable gaming, raffles or 50-50 drawings; and sometimes corps just plain ask for donations. This should certainly be the case; but this type of funding should be done to collect revenue for "future" expenditures and not relied upon to pay for outstanding bills in arrears. Again, this is where many corps get into trouble because they are not ran by business minded people. And any organization should never place the lives of hundreds of people on the line by signing a bus contract, for example, in which there is not already money in the bank to cover the contract. > And to all those "enablers", including the big equipment suppliers with their sponsorships and endorsements, the corporate donors, the Friends of DCI, the corps staffers that hand a paycheck back to the corps, parents of corps members or alumni who volunteer, donate, or sponsor other marchers, the corps members themselves who work fundraisers, or anyone who drops a few coins in one of those "fuel fund" jars, I just want to say.... Thank you for enabling. And I would like to say to those people please continuously check out the financial management of any entity in which you desire to donate; especially if you are placing your child into their hands. And only give your products and money to organizations that have proven to be fiscally responsible and are not afraid to say, "We care about the welfare of our youth, therefore we will not sign any contracts to create any expenditures until we are certain we can cover those operational costs up-front". If you knowingly give to responsible organizations you are a blessing; if you knowingly give to a fiscally irresponsible organization you are an enabler or worse. And if you give to any institution, drum corps, disaster relief organizations, youth charities, without knowing how your money is being managed and spent, then you are (fill in the blank... it starts with the letter "S") Edited September 6, 2011 by Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRevo Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 OMG... I can't believe this thread is still going. This is starting to become the "i'm not shutting up until I receive satisfaction" show. Get each other's numbers and give it a break. Quit pointing at the parents and or staff. John and Mike have accepted blame. Please contact them one on one. Some of us would like to see Revolution go forward with or with out the current administration....and it probably will. I wish I had all day to chew this gum some more, but.... If you haven't receive the satisfaction you desire by tearing down the remnants of a beloved organization....not Administration....organization, then please by all means get your lawyers on the phone and roll the dice with them. Otherwise, for the kids AND parents who have decided to continue with or join the ranks, LET THIS DIE. 35K views on something like this. I THINK YOU GOT YOUR MESSAGE ACROSS. Shame on the administrators of this forum to allow the same, rehashed crap be posted in 21 pages of constant back and forth between parents and old staff members. Again, Revolution has a web site and contact lists. Try a different tact. I love Revolution...what it was and what it CAN be. There are others out there like me. All you're doing now is stepping on anything good that came out of the organization. (members and staffs good memories) Throw your arrows now. You WON'T get the satisfaction of an "ouch" from me. Good Luck to Ya'll. May your complaints be fruitful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 OMG... I can't believe this thread is still going. This is starting to become the "i'm not shutting up until I receive satisfaction" show. Get each other's numbers and give it a break. Quit pointing at the parents and or staff. John and Mike have accepted blame. Please contact them one on one. Some of us would like to see Revolution go forward with or with out the current administration....and it probably will. I wish I had all day to chew this gum some more, but.... If you haven't receive the satisfaction you desire by tearing down the remnants of a beloved organization....not Administration....organization, then please by all means get your lawyers on the phone and roll the dice with them. Otherwise, for the kids AND parents who have decided to continue with or join the ranks, LET THIS DIE. 35K views on something like this. I THINK YOU GOT YOUR MESSAGE ACROSS. Shame on the administrators of this forum to allow the same, rehashed crap be posted in 21 pages of constant back and forth between parents and old staff members. Again, Revolution has a web site and contact lists. Try a different tact. I love Revolution...what it was and what it CAN be. There are others out there like me. All you're doing now is stepping on anything good that came out of the organization. (members and staffs good memories) Throw your arrows now. You WON'T get the satisfaction of an "ouch" from me. Good Luck to Ya'll. May your complaints be fruitful. No arrows, no stones, just pointing out to all who want to see drum corps prosper why many fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) > How is a donor, parent....anybody....supposed to know how well managed a drum corps is? Easy; just ask to see the revenue/expenditures and 990. They are public record due to the organization being a 501c3. They're also typically two years out of date, and they come nowhere close to telling the whole story. Capital Regiment's 990s looked fantastic when their bingo was peaking....but two years later, they couldn't afford to field a corps even after a year off. > We all know that no corps makes enough money to cover their expenses...Again not true; I suggest that you do some research because you will certainly find corps that never go into the Red; they place fiscal responsibility above artistic competition. What I meant was that no corps makes enough money via drum corps revenue sources. They all need to raise additional funds externally to cover that shortfall....like I said next: > corps raise funds through a variety of charitable solicitations to balance their budgets. Some are clever fee-for-service or product sales programs; some are targeted toward corporate/institutional sponsors; others are just charitable gaming, raffles or 50-50 drawings; and sometimes corps just plain ask for donations. Also, I would question your assertion about corps that "never go into the red". Cash flow is extremely uneven over the course of a season, and I would imagine that most corps have (and use) a line of short-term credit to deal with that reality, even if only for a few days. As an example, all-days are a period of high expense and low revenue, in contrast with the revenue influx from appearance fees and souvie sales once the season starts. I'd love it if any corps really was sufficiently funded that even a 3-day loan would not be required at any point. Can you give an example of a particular corps that you know operates in the black 365 days a year? Edited September 7, 2011 by audiodb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 In no way am I defending the Revolution Administration. But what you are saying is that a person who knowingly facilitates the continuous bail-out and operation of a mismanaged organization over a four-year period, then at the end of that four-year period posts a flaming "tirade" in a public forum that the the organizational administration staff is "solely" to blame, without disclosing their previous acceptance of said policies, should not be held accountable for leaving out that very important information? if your kid is on tour, do you do what you can to make sure he/she is ok, knowing you have issues, or do you stand your ground and see your kid suffer? Sure I'd have a long talk with my kid after the season, and it sounds like drumdad did, but I'd never let my kid suffer either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) if your kid is on tour, do you do what you can to make sure he/she is ok, knowing you have issues, or do you stand your ground and see your kid suffer? Sure I'd have a long talk with my kid after the season, and it sounds like drumdad did, but I'd never let my kid suffer either. You asked, so here ya go: a) If my child, of any age, was "suffering", which to me means life or death issues, then I would immediately bring that child home, and then more than likely sue the corps for child endangerment; b) if my child was under 18, and in a corps that begged for help because the buses were going to be taken away and food was getting scarce due to many of the others not paying their dues when I paid mine in full, I would also immediately bring him/her home and not allow my child to return to that particular organization (the welfare of my child is greater than learning from Carlos the Drummer); c) if my child was over 18, and went back to this same corps against my wishes while paying his/her own way, and the corps again begged for money, then I would offer to bring him/her home again; but if he/she chose to stick it out, I would certainly not offer up any money to facilitate a corps bail-out (at that point a 19 year-old "adult" is choosing to remain in this situation on his/her own if he/she refuses my offer to pay to get back home). Edited September 7, 2011 by Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) Also, I would question your assertion about corps that "never go into the red". Cash flow is extremely uneven over the course of a season, and I would imagine that most corps have (and use) a line of short-term credit to deal with that reality, even if only for a few days. As an example, all-days are a period of high expense and low revenue, in contrast with the revenue influx from appearance fees and souvie sales once the season starts. I'd love it if any corps really was sufficiently funded that even a 3-day loan would not be required at any point. Catch up on your understanding of Accrual Accounting as it relates to guaranteed future revenue (such as approved grants) vs. projected revenue (money you hope to collect through dues) and get back with me. The corps who rely mainly on the former and use the latter as a back-up are the responsible corps; those that rely heavily on the later and some, or not at all on the former, are the irresponsible ones. Can you give an example of a particular corps that you know operates in the black 365 days a year? Check up on the finances of the Academy and Pacific Crest, (and make sure you understand Accrual Accounting). Moreover, neither of them would ever place the kids on tour without a guarantee that the bills would be covered. Also, you said give you an example but you did not state a current corps; and everybody here hates this because they call it an unrealistic anomaly. The only corps in history that did it the completely "right" way was Star of Indiana. Edited September 7, 2011 by Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Catch up on your understanding of Accrual Accounting as it relates to guaranteed future revenue (such as approved grants) vs. projected revenue (money you hope to collect through dues) and get back with me. The corps who rely mainly on the former and use the latter as a back-up are the responsible corps; those that rely heavily on the later and some, or not at all on the former, are the irresponsible ones. Oh, so "the check is in the mail" is OK with you, depending on who the check writer is. Also, you said give you an example but you did not state a current corps; and everybody here hates this because they call it an unrealistic anomaly. The only corps in history that did it the completely "right" way was Star of Indiana. I asked for an example of a corps that "operates" (present tense) in the black 365 days a year. But I guess that answers the question.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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