Madison

[OrlandoContraAlum]

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. For what it's worth, I already bought the APD of Prelims, which of course has ESOM on it. I may also buy the finals CD. If you feel that the missing 2 minutes of video in Madison's show is enough of a problem, then of course you should not purchase the DVD.

I still think that it's a stretch to call this an ethical issue, but that's my opinion. I do have issue with one of your claims though, that "either laziness or overconfidence led to this issue". Licensing is something that has to be done every year, and the parties probably figured that they would eventually work things out. After all, this has been the case with almost all selections that corps have played through the years.

[Kamarag]

So, DCI is selling an imcomplete product and knew of the possibility of do so. This is why it is an ethical issue. Why would I buy a DVD of the top 12 without the complete top 12?

There is no ethical issue, because neither Scouts nor DCI tried to hide the fact that ESOM wouldn't be included. In fact, they've been nothing but above board in making sure people knew that possibility existed.

If you choose not to buy the DVD because ESOM isn't there, that's completely on you. Neither Madison nor DCI has done anything wrong. At all.

[OrlandoContraAlum]

It's a scary day when John Adcock and I totally agree, right John?

(Although not the first time!)

[Kamarag]

It's a scary day when John Adcock and I totally agree, right John?

Great minds, and all that...

[CrunchyTenor]

Speaking of ethics, how long will it take after the DVD's are released for someone to do their own synch job? With the equipment and software available today, someone will figure out how to do it.

Garry in Vegas

[Stu]

... I do have issue with one of your claims though, that "either laziness or overconfidence led to this issue"...

.... Licensing is something that has to be done every year, and the parties probably figured that they would eventually work things out. After all, this has been the case with almost all selections that corps have played through the years.

There is a huge contradiction in your conclusion: Your reasoning against overconfidence actually does indicate probable overconfidence by the corps!!

Edited September 11, 2011 by Stu

[perc2100]

Perc2100: The solution can be found in one of two areas if there is willingness to do so: 1) Have Federal Congress enact a law limiting the time it takes to receive permission/rejection; or 2) Have the corps design teams and DCI begin their application process (at least) one full-season in advance. The problem with number one is that it is , well, government; and good luck getting them to solve anything; as well as the government will not care enough about such a small portion of the law as to spend time working that particular issue into a bill. The problem with number two is the volatility of corps staff changes from year-to-year; and therefore the corps have to wait until well after Finals to solidify their up-coming season's show to submit applications for approval; which means extending those requests any earlier would not work because a new staff would not want to do a show submitted by the old staff. So, convince the Congress to shorten the required time to receive permission/rejection or convince corps to submit shows ove a full season in advance and the solution will materialize. Otherwise we stay with the way it is now and bite the bullet.

Yeah, I honestly don't know how I feel about this. It's easy to blame this on complications or something, but the fact is that in 2011 Madison Scouts were the only corps that competed in DCI that had these problems: every other corps (definitely every other WC corps) did not have these problems. Now, you can say that this was a fluke, the laws are complicated, Madison did everything they could, etc. Or you can say that Madison's management/design team failed, to an extent, in a way that no other corps in WC failed this season. No other design staff had problems submitting the proper paperwork and obtaining ALL of the copy right clearances in the same amount of time that Scouts had.

On the flip side, to the majority of fans Empire State of Mind was a great closer, and they wouldn't have had it any other way. It brought the house down routinely, and generated quite the buzz all summer long (and then some). While it's arguable that Scouts' programming of ESOM was super effective on the sheets, you can't deny the popularity of the chart from a fan standpoint.

I don't know. We can say 'bit the bullet' and hope that this is the rare exception rather than an annual discussion, but that doesn't exactly seem like a great idea. Personally, I'm OK with the Blu-rays/DVD's having the audio and no video. I wasn't a huge fan of Scouts show anyway (I didn't dislike it, I just don't think it'll get a lot of play from me regardless of rights issues/censorship), I'm more thinking about this from a purely philosophical discussion. Kind of a, "what's most important: artistic integrity or following all rights to ensure that all archives & merchandise of all shows is complete?

[perc2100]

So, how would you explain to the youth that this great institution called the Madison Scouts, one with a proud tradition of honor, is choosing instead to purposely break the law; and thus placing the corps into financial ruin by the huge fines which would ensue if you continued on that path? Would in not be far better to inform the youth that the Madison Scouts organization has been, and always will be, and honorable institution; and while unfortunate, to keep that honor the current youth are going to have to step up and learn a new portion of the show?

And at what point does the management decide, "this is going to be difficult to obtain all rights to, perhaps we should think about something else" during the winter/early spring months? There have been corps that have been pretty successful radically changing show designs late in the 'off-season' (i.e. spring). Heck, Scouts were successful radically changing their show mid-summer in 1976; I know that was a LONG time ago, but it's not unheard of, and not impossible to ask.

Maybe a smart option is for corps to obtain rights for 'plan B' pieces, so if they don't obtain all of the rights for their 'plan A' they already have another chart in the hopper ready to go. I don't know how fiscally feasible that would be (and I don't know if a corps can obtain rights, not use a chart, and then not have to pay the bulk of the fees), but it might be an option.

[perc2100]

... if the corps has been rehearsing/performing the show as originally written. I can't imagine being in Madison and having Robert Smith and the rest of the staff sitting me down during everydays and telling me that the badassed closer that we have to our show, the whole "rejuvenation" part, has to be changed. I would think that this would do far more damage to the kids. And it's all about the kids, right? ;P

I think there's a point in the late winter/spring where Madison's staff could've decided, "this chart is going to be extremely difficult to get sync rights to, and realistically there is a possibility we will be unable to obtain it. Let's do another chart." Would the effect be different with a different chart? Of course. Would it have been better? Maybe; we'll never know. Heck, Robert W. Smith has written some pretty great original pieces over the years, it's not out of the realm that he could've written just as powerful a chart, with a similar 'tone' to ESOM, and Scouts would've had zero rights issues.

[perc2100]

I took it in the way N.E. Brigand thought I took it; that you were advocating breaking the law. My misunderstanding; sorry! However, I do have a question for you: What if, after learning the music and drill, it was discovered permission to arrange, or permission to perform, had been denied. How do you think Robert Smith should approach the corps members with that information?

This brings up an interesting discussion. I'm sure the average DCP reader would (rightfully) say, "heck yes, Scouts would need to change course, program a different chart, etc" in this instance. If that's the case, then what's the difference w/sync rights? I know we're talking the difference between violating copyright law (performing music w/out permission to arrange or perform) vs delivering an edited product after the performance (sync rights). But the general concept is the same, with part of the DCI viewership placated, as well as Scouts getting maximum benefit from adjudication.

This almost can be looked at, "as a designer, I think this show will give me maximum points for judges, and even if we can't get sync rights for DVD's/live streams I'm OK because I'm hoping to do well competitively at the expense of diminishing the DVD/live stream products." I know ALL corps want to maximize their scores, but Scouts were the only corps to attempt this in 2011 w/out obtaining all proper rights.