Nobody uses clear lacquer horns?

[hornandsoccer]

Well, there's the laquer argument, and then there's also groups putting additional items on the horn, á la Glassmen 2011. Anybody know of any other groups doing that historically, and what purpose that serves? Would the effects be similar to laquer, ie "warming" the quality up?

[84BDsop]

I remember the inside of the bell being painted white.

That was late 80s/early 90s...I really want to say it was 89. In 84 and 85 (maybe other years as well) the main horn was silver, but the inside of the bell was lacquered.

I think the "toilet bowl" look with the white bells only lasted one year.

[burgerbob]

Well, there's the laquer argument, and then there's also groups putting additional items on the horn, á la Glassmen 2011. Anybody know of any other groups doing that historically, and what purpose that serves? Would the effects be similar to laquer, ie "warming" the quality up?

Personally, I think lacquer vs. silver on marching horns is a moot point. There is a difference, but probably not enough to effect a drum corps sound when most of it is just playing loud with a big hornline. Crown 2010 didn't sound any better than Crown 2009 or 2011- and those latter two both won the Jim Ott.

It does look very different, however, which I think (nowadays) is the most important aspect.

[kentw]

Scientifically speaking, lacquered horns don't resonate as well as silver-plated ones. In order to lacquer a horn properly, it has to be put on in a thick coat. Silver-plating is not the same and can be thinner. Therefore, the lacquered horns are more dampened by the coat than silver ones. In fact, some professional brass instrumentalists prefer un-lacquered horns over silver or even gold coats. I think an interesting experiment would be to equip a DCI brass line with un-lacquered horns. That would be a cool sound.

[skajerk]

That was late 80s/early 90s...I really want to say it was 89. In 84 and 85 (maybe other years as well) the main horn was silver, but the inside of the bell was lacquered.

I think the "toilet bowl" look with the white bells only lasted one year.

I think they may have used them in '83, as well. I thought I remembered seeing those horns when they toured CA. I may be thinking of '84, though.

[burgerbob]

Scientifically speaking, lacquered horns don't resonate as well as silver-plated ones. In order to lacquer a horn properly, it has to be put on in a thick coat. Silver-plating is not the same and can be thinner. Therefore, the lacquered horns are more dampened by the coat than silver ones. In fact, some professional brass instrumentalists prefer un-lacquered horns over silver or even gold coats. I think an interesting experiment would be to equip a DCI brass line with un-lacquered horns. That would be a cool sound.

Scientifically how? I'm not sure there's a way to test "resonance" in a brass instrument.

I have an unlacquered bass trombone, two lacquered tenors, and a silver/gold plated euph. I have a friend with a same model tenor as mine (Conn 6H) but unlacquered. It plays the same. If my bass were lacquered, it would look good! and I'll bet the difference in playing would be marginal at best- it's a well made horn, a tiny coat of something on the outside won't make that big of a difference. The lacquer coats Yamaha does, for instance, are pretty #### thin and basically just so the horn doesn't tarnish.

[bluecoats88]

Well, there's the laquer argument, and then there's also groups putting additional items on the horn, á la Glassmen 2011. Anybody know of any other groups doing that historically, and what purpose that serves? Would the effects be similar to laquer, ie "warming" the quality up?

what did glassmen put on their horns last year?

also I believe the white bell for Crossmen was 1989.

[bmjfelts1988]

I know plenty of professional players who prefer the warmer, darker sound of lacquer horns. I do agree that there is more resonance with plated horns though. Just saying that just because it is lacquer doesn't mean that it is bad. I actually LOVED Crown's sound in 2010. And I don't know if they had to work harder or not to get the volume they wanted, but I heard no drop off from previous years. Plated horns might be the way to go for field. But by no means is a lacquered horn terrible. Some of the nicest professional model brass instruments I've played on are lacquer.

I think it depends on the instrument too. Pro trumpet players rarely use lacquer horns. Usually if you think you are seeing a pro with a lacquer trumpet, there is a good chance that it actually might be gold plated. Which actually, gold plating actually makes for the darkest sound. It's a heavier metal. But it's still metal and therefore vibrates better. Lacquer on a trumpet creates more of a dead sound. Not darker. Just more dead.

Other brass instruments do however react differently. Rare that you see silver french horns or tubas. I'd say trombones are about split. But you are right, I probably overstated my point a little bit. "Terrible" might be a strong word. It depends on the horn (even the weight and bore size of the horn) and also how good of a job is done with the lacquer. Just the same, I know that a lot of pro brass players also like to strip the lacquer off of their horns. So there is definitely something to my point (as overstated as it was).

Great discussion.

Edited January 24, 2012 by bmjfelts1988

[bmjfelts1988]

I remember when the Crossmen used a "mixed" horn. The body of the horn was silver (or nickel) plated while the inside of the bell was done with a clear lacquer finish

I remember the inside of the bell being painted white.

You are both correct.

1981-1988 Crossmen: Clear lacquer over a brass bell.

1989 Crossmen: White lacquer bell.

[bmjfelts1988]

Well, there's the laquer argument, and then there's also groups putting additional items on the horn, á la Glassmen 2011. Anybody know of any other groups doing that historically, and what purpose that serves? Would the effects be similar to laquer, ie "warming" the quality up?

See, I don't think lacquer warms the quality up. The weight and bore size determines bright/dark. Plating or stripping intensifies a horn built to be dark. Plating or stripping intensifies a horn built to be bright. Lacquer deadens the resonance of either. Even a bright horn with lacquer added only lessons the vibrations but the core of the sound is still very much like it was before.

Edited January 24, 2012 by bmjfelts1988