PRPhan4ever Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Ok -- First off, I am NO PERCUSSIONIST..... 2nd, I am a PR "homer" as these boards seem to call it. Third, I've not marched in a DCI corps, but I have 25+ years of playing, writting, teaching experience where horn playing is concerned. What I'm about to tackle is the pit/percussion mix on a field with horns. In WGI, it's percussion, pit and colorguard on occassion. Phantom is currently sitting in 4th place in the rankings. Their percussion is what - 7th? First, Regiment has never been one to strive for winning -- they have one goal and that is to reach and move the audience. They've consistantly done this year after year and this is no surprise. What troubls me is the pit and percussion. Now I did Shane Gwaltney''s work w/WGI and think he's take over a hurculean job in rebuilding Regiment's line after Paul rennick moved to SCV. I've listened to PR 2003 to 2010 when Paul wrote the battery and his wife & he wrote the pit parts. I had just done this at the end of the season last year. The phrasing and the interweaving of the pit to battery to complimenting the horns parts -- and interludes in between was superb! Then, I listened to 2011 & 2012. This was only audio on a surround sound home theater system. What I did not hear was that complex melding of the pit parts to the horns on the field. At times, I hear NO pit! Sometimes, like in 2012, I hear the amplified asian theme inbetween OVER the pit... shouldn't it be the other way around? Now, I've read all the threads on here RE: Paul Rennick, his teaching style, his perfection to detail and i am not demeaning Mr. Gwaltney's work at all... but it seems that this years judging system and the new breakdown isn't helping Regiment's percussion at all. I've read Shane's bio, and am well familiar w/Paul's (I've volunteered since 2003 and before that and have atteneded and recorded MANY a rehearsal) so I know how Paul Rennick does things. My post here is to figure out (in my own genre)what is the difference between the two men and how the fit w/Regiment? They both write excellent charts -- a percussion professional here in PA has confirmed this, and I am wondering if the judges aren't a bit leary of WGI personalities or, do they just feel - before seeing/hearing/judging a line that's taught by a WGI professional as opposed to a seasoned DCI mega percussion name like Paul Rennick. Something is amiss. Phantom seems more musical than cadets, but cadets have just beaten them (and many others of late) and Regiment just can't seem to pick up that perc score --- my feel from listening as I mentioned to comparison years and that the perfect blend that brass and pit/battery had while Rennick was at PR are not as flowing, not as interweaving, and this could be the fact that there have been two different horn arrangers in Gwaltney's first two years. Take 2012 for example.... I heaflow is concened.r drums alot and great playing, but no pit! Or, I hear the pit, and hardly drums.... there are portions where the battery is all the way in teh back of the field -- which may make them more dissonant? I am not sure... but the two men are great at what they do, but drastically different where musical flow between the two are heard. Anyone else feel this way? Is it perhaps that WGI & DCI writting are that different in competition sense, or, are the DCI judges just passing PR by because that BIG NAME is no longer there? Ironically, look how SCV's line is scoring? They are good... VERY GOOD, but, if I am not miistaken, most are still within age out limits and came from PR w/Rennick! Are the DCI judges just going by a name, or, are the two men that drastically different in their approach and writting that they differ so much to the judges? Rennick and Gwaltney are superb in what they do.... but is it too soon to expect a better line two years after assuming a post? Maybe so.... is the talent level for each line equal? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Other posts on here have touched on this. So is it that Paul and Shane are two birds of a different nature in the same business? I think so. No line is the same, nor is teaching method -- but what IS consistant is how these lines are supposed to be judged. Personally, I think Regiment should be scoring higher -- but when i listen to 2011 & 2012 thus far -- I want that total cohesion and flow from piece to piece that is everyone, battery, pit and horns... not just one or two at a time, or, just one or the other. Thoughts on this? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRPhan4ever Posted July 29, 2012 Author Share Posted July 29, 2012 So sorry for the typos ... typing on a phone is hard! :) In short... my whole post was to determine if PR's percussion has some sort of answer for their low scoring. Could it be that Gwaltney has not really been labeled in DC as a 'name' or, is it that the two styles are that drastically different, or perhaps -- is the judging system a little biased towards those in the WGI circuit? Maybe it something more? New staff just starting to work together... who knows? That's why I wanted to get other opinions ... PLEASE NO FLAMES! No bashing here... just trying to assertain why their percussion is not even in the top 5. Are they that dirty? And yes I get it -- others out there are just that much better supposedly -- but I don't think that's the only assumption as of now. Insight might be helpful.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECU_Snare Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Ok -- First off, I am NO PERCUSSIONIST..... 2nd, I am a PR "homer" as these boards seem to call it. Third, I've not marched in a DCI corps, but I have 25+ years of playing, writting, teaching experience where horn playing is concerned. What I'm about to tackle is the pit/percussion mix on a field with horns. In WGI, it's percussion, pit and colorguard on occassion. Phantom is currently sitting in 4th place in the rankings. Their percussion is what - 7th? First, Regiment has never been one to strive for winning -- they have one goal and that is to reach and move the audience. They've consistantly done this year after year and this is no surprise. What troubls me is the pit and percussion. Now I did Shane Gwaltney''s work w/WGI and think he's take over a hurculean job in rebuilding Regiment's line after Paul rennick moved to SCV. I've listened to PR 2003 to 2010 when Paul wrote the battery and his wife & he wrote the pit parts. I had just done this at the end of the season last year. The phrasing and the interweaving of the pit to battery to complimenting the horns parts -- and interludes in between was superb! Then, I listened to 2011 & 2012. This was only audio on a surround sound home theater system. What I did not hear was that complex melding of the pit parts to the horns on the field. At times, I hear NO pit! Sometimes, like in 2012, I hear the amplified asian theme inbetween OVER the pit... shouldn't it be the other way around? Now, I've read all the threads on here RE: Paul Rennick, his teaching style, his perfection to detail and i am not demeaning Mr. Gwaltney's work at all... but it seems that this years judging system and the new breakdown isn't helping Regiment's percussion at all. I've read Shane's bio, and am well familiar w/Paul's (I've volunteered since 2003 and before that and have atteneded and recorded MANY a rehearsal) so I know how Paul Rennick does things. My post here is to figure out (in my own genre)what is the difference between the two men and how the fit w/Regiment? They both write excellent charts -- a percussion professional here in PA has confirmed this, and I am wondering if the judges aren't a bit leary of WGI personalities or, do they just feel - before seeing/hearing/judging a line that's taught by a WGI professional as opposed to a seasoned DCI mega percussion name like Paul Rennick. Something is amiss. Phantom seems more musical than cadets, but cadets have just beaten them (and many others of late) and Regiment just can't seem to pick up that perc score --- my feel from listening as I mentioned to comparison years and that the perfect blend that brass and pit/battery had while Rennick was at PR are not as flowing, not as interweaving, and this could be the fact that there have been two different horn arrangers in Gwaltney's first two years. Take 2012 for example.... I heaflow is concened.r drums alot and great playing, but no pit! Or, I hear the pit, and hardly drums.... there are portions where the battery is all the way in teh back of the field -- which may make them more dissonant? I am not sure... but the two men are great at what they do, but drastically different where musical flow between the two are heard. Anyone else feel this way? Is it perhaps that WGI & DCI writting are that different in competition sense, or, are the DCI judges just passing PR by because that BIG NAME is no longer there? Ironically, look how SCV's line is scoring? They are good... VERY GOOD, but, if I am not miistaken, most are still within age out limits and came from PR w/Rennick! Are the DCI judges just going by a name, or, are the two men that drastically different in their approach and writting that they differ so much to the judges? Rennick and Gwaltney are superb in what they do.... but is it too soon to expect a better line two years after assuming a post? Maybe so.... is the talent level for each line equal? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Other posts on here have touched on this. So is it that Paul and Shane are two birds of a different nature in the same business? I think so. No line is the same, nor is teaching method -- but what IS consistant is how these lines are supposed to be judged. Personally, I think Regiment should be scoring higher -- but when i listen to 2011 & 2012 thus far -- I want that total cohesion and flow from piece to piece that is everyone, battery, pit and horns... not just one or two at a time, or, just one or the other. Thoughts on this? I think you pretty much answered most of your own question in regards to the differences between Gwaltney and Rennick. The amazing thing about this activity is the differences you will find from corps to corps. I think the only way to really judge solely based on talent would be if every line had the same book and technique (Cadets use a different grip and stroke compared to PR, SCV, Cavies, etc). You touched on one important part, and that's the musicality of the book. I personally saw this bigtime in SCV between 2004 and later years after Murray left. The 2004 book was a night and day difference from some of the others. Unfortunately (well, in your case since you're a PR fan and I'm a SCV fan ), the idea of moving from corps to corps as a member can lead to one corps having better talent than the next. However, this is also a good thing because that means students and corps members will always demand top talent for teaching, which obviously leads to overall better musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamMan Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I think you pretty much answered most of your own question in regards to the differences between Gwaltney and Rennick. The amazing thing about this activity is the differences you will find from corps to corps. I think the only way to really judge solely based on talent would be if every line had the same book and technique (Cadets use a different grip and stroke compared to PR, SCV, Cavies, etc). You touched on one important part, and that's the musicality of the book. I personally saw this bigtime in SCV between 2004 and later years after Murray left. The 2004 book was a night and day difference from some of the others. Unfortunately (well, in your case since you're a PR fan and I'm a SCV fan ), the idea of moving from corps to corps as a member can lead to one corps having better talent than the next. However, this is also a good thing because that means students and corps members will always demand top talent for teaching, which obviously leads to overall better musicians. I never understood the "piston stroke" technique used by Phantom, Crown, Cavies, etc. Why not spare yourself the pain and allow your body (wrist and arm) to move naturally and reduce shock. I've seen too many people get hurt from playing with that technique. Also, didn't Sandy Rennick write the pit book for Phantom while Paul was there? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Gwaltney has nothing to do with the pit's writing. That's all done by Matt Jordan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I never understood the "piston stroke" technique used by Phantom, Crown, Cavies, etc. Why not spare yourself the pain and allow your body (wrist and arm) to move naturally and reduce shock. I've seen too many people get hurt from playing with that technique. Also, didn't Sandy Rennick write the pit book for Phantom while Paul was there? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyTenor Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 How many years was Shane with Spirit of Atlanta before moving to Regiment? How many years will he be required to "pay his dues" in DCI, and not be thought of as just a WGI guy? Garry in Vegas 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyTenor Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 (edited) double post Edited July 29, 2012 by CrunchyTenor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamMan Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Yes. That would explain the awesome blend of pit to battery. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphononium Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) I have said it elsewhere, and I will say it again, but remember that my opinion does not in anyway negate anything that Rennick has done for anybody. I am obviously a Phantom honk, but I am a bigger fan/participant of WGI. Rennick was one of my favorite instructors; the way he does things is very unique and I love it. I marched under him, I have attended several clinics, blah blah... I love what he and Sandy do for the front ensemble and always will. That being said... I am no longer enamored with his writing style. It was great up to 07/08, but to me it has been same ####, different day since then. I know people don't agree with me, but that is the honest truth, and I am sure there are those out there who could say the same for any percussion arranger, including Gwaltney. This has caused me to really enjoy what has happened the past two years. I also think that my favoring Gwaltney has a lot to do with a direct correlation of his abilities to the success of Music City Mystique. What he does there is very apparent. I think that Gwaltney brings a very wide range of things to the table, especially visually, conceptually; that is very apparent with the small additions and nuances we are seeing added on a daily basis. Does this mean that there is a trade off to be had? His formula is a proven one in WGI, but for DCI? Well, I just don't know... I can't imagine having two different horn arrangers in two years has helped the arranging situation. I like the electronics, (see above WGI comment) but I am in the minority on that one. loved Matt Jordan's writing last year, this year...meh. To say that Shane has nothing to do with the pit writing is a little silly, the two have worked together for years. I think that the music selection could not be the most ideal for pit nor battery. But I digress. I personally like what is happening and am excited for what the future holds. Just my $0.02. Flame away. Edited July 30, 2012 by euphononium 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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