Time to unplug drum corps

[MikeD]

Actually up thru the early 60's is wasn't uncommon for corps to march up to three glockenspiels, and for the most part they marched within the brass lines, many times as a squad of their own. Boy, could those puppies be heard!!! :devil:/>/>/>/>

I guess until the VFW and/or AL outlawed them sometime in the 60's.

I do recall seeing, and most especially hearing , a lot of those things in parade corps through the 60's. I don't ever recall seeing any in field corps, at least at shows I went to starting in 1964 here in NJ.

Not until BAC in 69 tried to use them and got shot down prior to VFW champs in Philly (what an amazing show they had that year!!!).

[corpsband]

Marching mallets when first introduced in the mid-70's were not parked on the front sideline, and it was not recordings I am talking about. They marched with the rest of the percussion, as did the timpani, and they played incessantly throughout the show, due to, as I said, the requirement to play a lot to garner a good PA score. That applied to both xylos and bells, but the marching bells in particular created the clanging because they had to be way overplayed for the nature of the instrument.

Marching xylos were primarily the 'top half' of a true xylophone, so even there the sound produced was limited to the top half of the spectrum of a regular xylo, creating a strident "trebly" sound...esp on the keylon bars used in marching xylos. Creating the pit was one of the best things to happen to marching percussion, and allowing them to be micced has greatly improved on their overall sound*.

* IMO

[BRASSO]

Here we go again! Cab Jr. trying to relive "the old days" again. I am probably older than you yet I see the improvement of the sound of the brass lines from 1970 to the present. You cannot say that those days musically were better. Intonation today is way better thah "yesterday."

There is lots to take issue with on what on Cabs, Jr here ( Ohio Jr.Corps alum, not the legendary Championship Sr. Corps from NJ) without having to take issue with him on what he did not state it seems to me. He never brought up the issue in his rant regarding brass line intonation. So maybe it might be a good idea to respond to what he did say, not what he did not say. His main complaint was amplification and electronics. Its in the heading of the thread title, and in his first sentence. He never brought up the issue of a comparison of " brass intonation " of earlier decades brass lines with that of today's brass lines. Just sayin'.

Edited May 30, 2013 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

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It's 2013 not 1973! Deal with it!

Question....do you still like the rotary dial telephone with the wires? Push button telephone with the cord? Wireless phone?

Do you like the vinyl LPs? Cassette tapes? 8 Track tapes? CD's? MP3/iPod?

This is a straw man argument. It incorrectly assumes that everything is better in 2013 than it was in 1973, which is of course a silly premise. I like my baseball in MLB here in 2013 played with a baseball bat that is a wooden Louisville Slugger. Even though since 1973, technology has developed the aluminum baseball bat for use in MLB. Most fans of MLB agree with me too. They want their MLB played with the traditional Louisville Slugger wooden Baseball bat. Now, because we prefer a wooden bat from pre 1973, does this mean we also prefer a rotary dial telephone with wires from 1973 ? of course not. Thats just plain silly. And those that prefer a wireless cell phone of today over the rotary phone with wires don't automatically prefer ( for example ) the Blue Devils of this decade over that of perhaps earlier decades either. So your analogy, despite some favor on here, is just a silly analogy, imo.

Edited May 30, 2013 by BRASSO

[Tito]

Hey all. Frequent lurker, infrequent poster here. Also, a long time audio pro and had to chime in.

1. The addition of amplification made the FE truly a viable 3rd ensemble on the field rather than just an accompanying voice as it had been in the past. I believe it has attracted better players since the contribution of the FE is more valued. You can argue this point that all players have gotten better over the last 20 years, I get it. However, the greatest jump in talent and writing has been in the FE. Also, marimbas and vibes now sound like marimbas and vibes.

2. I'm not sure how some can yearn for the number of corps and number of kids involved in the activity from years past, yet also complain about the activity taking steps that attract youth. (I realize this was not part of the original post, and may be a bit off topic). Kids are surrounded by electronics...phones, ipads etc. For better or worse, music today is based more in computer based electronic sounds more than ever before. If the activity is trying to attract youth and grow the number of corps, why not do what would attract youth? What do you think SoundSport and Drumline Battle are? They are "So You Think You Can Dance" and "America's Got Talent" drum corps style. I have my issues with this stuff as well, but the intent is to attract kids to the activity. You cant do that with the 700th arrangement of Big Noise from Winnetka.

3. I get it. I know why you don't like synths. They are too loud sometimes, and the thunderous goo can get a bit much. Some of this has to do with the speakers we are using that create "hot spots" in the stands for certain listeners, but that's a conversation for another day. (Small ground stacked line arrays, look it up) However, as more and more corps get pros in to the audio positions, and not just the parent who used to install car stereos or the pit gut who has to learn this stuff, the outcome will get better, and it has greatly improved already. I don't know who he is, but SCV's guy is doing a great job. (and has a beautiful FOH rack, but that's beside the point..kudos) The FE is never overbalanced, and you hear them featured when you should, and don't when they are supportive. Shout out to the Cavies team as well. Cadets just had an electronics position open, which I assume was filled with a true pro. We are not long from every corps having a full time PA guy will be the norm, and the results will improve.

Thats my 2 cents. Always open to thoughtful discussion!

Edited May 30, 2013 by Tito

[JamMan]

It's the same old thing that if you want to get a better score in DCI (or any other activity) you better play ball. Perception rather than reality tends to be the rule. Hell, we have people on here that are band directors and judges and can't even tell (or delude themselves) when the synth is doubling a tuba part. That is why when someone not even REMOTELY connected to the activity can honestly say they are very good bands, while everyone else in the activity has a cow. :)

Why does it matter if a synth is doubling a tuba part? Isn't louder better?

I kind of feel bad for the poster of this topic. The anonymous red marks from the 30 or 40 people who have made this decision and who pretty much place the vast majority of comments here on DCP will be merciless. I rarely bother making comments here anymore...... in fact this is a new screen name. I will continue to attend a couple of shows a year and buy another year of the Fan Network. But I wonder how many people decided to attend a drum corps show in the last few years because a bit of sampled music from a Hip-Hop "artist" or a synthesized cello. I wonder if that number of people was larger than the number who said this isn't drum corps, it isn't unique, I don't speak french and why did I just spend all of this money? That was a rhetorical question.....not trying to create a big extended argument between the usual suspects.

OH NOES HIS IMAGINARY INNERNET POINTZ!

Mic'ing an instrument ? no problem if it enhances the balance and the listening pleasure, listening pleasure being the key determinative factor, imo.

Introducing synthethic sounds into judged performances ? fraught with big time problems, imo. Thats because the judge is being asked to judge both real live performance playing, while simultaneously judging something that is completely superficial, is canned, and introduced into the judged performance. This makes a subjective evaluation of the performance even more subjective than it already was. The judge now is judging artificial music consisting of pre canned music coming from a stationary non human box along with the real live, on field performers playing. The introduction of artificial and synthetic things into the judged competition only adds to the sense now that these judged shows are increasingly more and more being judged by adults ( DCI judges ) judging other adults ( show designers ). Say whatever negatives we want about earlier decades, but the shows were primarily judged with only what was played and marched on the field by real live competitors. Thats all changed now with the introduction into judged competition synthetic sounds not at all coming from a single performer on the field in competition... but something introduced by an adult onto the field, and which will be judged in competition. The people increasingly being judged in DCI shows now, don't even set foot on the field, nor put on a uniform, and they are WAY over 21, 22. But things change, time moves on, and for better or worse, here we are.

You...really don't know how workstation and synth works, do you? Do you get mad because a snare drummer isn't actually making the snare sound with their mouth? No? Then don't get mad when a keyboardist is making a sound with their fingers.

Mic'd brass solos are kind of lame. But with as loud as hornlines are now, pits have to be amplified. And I don't care for synths that much, but they can definitely be used tastefully.

Has any corps mic'd a solist without altering their sound intentionally? Bluecoats a couple years ago had distortion, I believe. Cadets dropped the bass out of the trumpet duet in the beginning of last year's show.

I am calling BS on this. Fact is, the front ensemble has become unequally prioritized compared to the field percussion or the brass. They are now the one section playing constantly from the first sound of the pre-show through the final note. And they are the only section that has had widespread (obligatory) concessions employed in staging, then later in use of electronic amplification.

In case you haven't noticed, drum corps has turned into more of a "field show", where a story or theme is acted out to music. The pit's just playing the same role they always played.

If memory serves, the xylophone was a pleasantly balanced addition to the ensemble from a live spectator standpoint. The "incessant clanging" came later, when we heard recordings of those corps with their mallet players so often staged directly in front of recording microphones positioned very close to the front sideline.

Xylos are rarely mic'd, even today.

Actually up thru the early 60's is wasn't uncommon for corps to march up to three glockenspiels, and for the most part they marched within the brass lines, many times as a squad of their own. Boy, could those puppies be heard!!! :devil:/>/>/>/>

Nobody mics their bells, so they're still heard just fine.

[BRASSO]

You...really don't know how workstation and synth works, do you? Do you get mad because a snare drummer isn't actually making the snare sound with their mouth? No? Then don't get mad when a keyboardist is making a sound with their fingers.

Well, if you are going to be snarky, I could just as easily state that you really don't know how reading comprehension works, do you ? Thats because I stated above that I had no problems with amplification if it enhanced the volume and the listening pleasure of those in the audience. I took issue with any synthetic sound and for the reasons stated above that I am not now inclined to repeat for your personal remedial reading benefit. You stated that I don't know how a synth works. I believe I know how a synth works apparently better than you know how syllables in a sentence work.

Edited May 30, 2013 by BRASSO

[MikeD]

Mic'ing an instrument ? no problem if it enhances the balance and the listening pleasure, listening pleasure being the key determinative factor, imo.

Introducing synthethic sounds into judged performances ? fraught with big time problems, imo. Thats because the judge is being asked to judge both real live performance playing, while simultaneously judging something that is completely superficial, is canned, and introduced into the judged performance. This makes a subjective evaluation of the performance even more subjective than it already was. The judge now is judging artificial music consisting of pre canned music coming from a stationary non human box along with the real live, on field performers playing. The introduction of artificial and synthetic things into the judged competition only adds to the sense now that these judged shows are increasingly more and more being judged by adults ( DCI judges ) judging other adults ( show designers ). Say whatever negatives we want about earlier decades, but the shows were primarily judged with only what was played and marched on the field by real live competitors. Thats all changed now with the introduction into judged competition synthetic sounds not at all coming from a single performer on the field in competition... but something introduced by an adult onto the field, and which will be judged in competition. The people increasingly being judged in DCI shows now, don't even set foot on the field, nor put on a uniform, and they are WAY over 21, 22. But things change, time moves on, and for better or worse, here we are.

What is synthetic sound? Sound is sound. A trumpet player buzzes his/her lips, it goes through tubing and out comes a trumpet sound. It sounds nothing like the trumpet player buzzing (or at least that is the goal! ).

[JamMan]

Well, if you are going to be snarky, I could just as easily state that you really don't know how reading comprehension works, do you ? Thats because I stated above that I had no problems with amplification if it enhanced the volume and the listening pleasure of those in the audience. I took issue with any synthetic sound and for the reasons stated above that I am not inclined to repeat for your remedial reading benefit. You stated that I don't know how a synth works. I believe I know how a synth works apparently better than you know how syllables in a sentence work.

Call me out for being snarky, then be even more snarky...nice. Now you call me out for reading comprehension, then you fail to see that I never talked about amplification.

Projection much?

Teach me how a synth works.

[glory]

right...the opportunity was use it, score better. Kinda kills all of the original PR used to promote the passage right? Remember all the stuff about "scores won't be hurt if it's not used"....so using it to your advantage means if not used, it was to your disadvantage.

you can try and spin it any way you want...the bottom line is that statement blew all of the DCI spin out of the water. Bottom line, don't use it, your score suffers.

Sorry Jeff. You're way off. In the Cavies estimation, not using amps was like not using three-valve horns. Not choosing the best-available equipment option was choosing to limit their scoring opportunity. They didn't check a box to get extra credit. They put their best corps forward.

HH