JKT90 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) 1374434054[/url]' post='3291062']Yea, absolutely. I do know that "audience engagement" *isn't* talking about the paying, ticket-holding audience. It refers to the judge as a member of the audience the corps are performing to. I know that's not the answer anyone wants to hear, but that's how it's directed by DCI. The idea being that corps performances affect individuals differently, and how can one person presume to speak for another on what's "engaging". Just because "the audience" isn't clapping doesn't mean they aren't engaged. I'm not defending this, I'm just trying to explain it. That actually makes sense to me. So, in essence it makes it more subjective than it does technical, since the judge is a part of the audience and scoring based on how engaged they are. I think you summed up most people's issues with the judges in your explanation. Edited July 21, 2013 by JKT90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Design is inextricably part of the equation. If members aren't given an entertaining or challenging show to perform then they won't be able to achieve that. Entertainment is not achieved by design or proficiency alone, but entertainment is the ultimate point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 entertainment is the ultimate point. You can make an argument for that being the point of the activity, but not the scoring system. Maybe it should be, though there would be consequences to doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) You can make an argument for that being the point of the activity, but not the scoring system. Maybe it should be, though there would be consequences to doing that. I agree. The " entertainment quotient " is entirely... entirely... based upon how moved the Judge is. " Show Design "nor " General Effect " points never factor in " audience ". The judge... 1 judge... who literally wrote the definition and criteria to establish " General Effect " captions in 1972 for all the " General Effect " judges to utilize ( used ever since in terms of basic " GE " caption constructs ) made it quite clear that " General Effect " had to do with ( his words )" how well the music, drill, guard was integrated together in the design of the show compared with other units in competition" The key word here being show " integration ". The " General Effect " Caption would be allotted points on how the show... in design... effected " him " as the GE Judge, and " him ( or later her ) " alone. Edited July 21, 2013 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKT90 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 1374435606[/url]' post='3291085']You can make an argument for that being the point of the activity, but not the scoring system. Maybe it should be, though there would be consequences to doing that. Good point. If it were just pure entertainment value over artistic achievement we would have girls in bikinis and a dude in a banana suit running around the field...not that there's anything wrong with that :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I agree. The " entertainment quotient " is entirely... entirely... based upon how moved the Judge is. " Show Design "nor " General Effect " points never factor in " audience ". The judge... 1 judge... who literally wrote the definition and criteria to establish " General Effect " captions in 1972 for all the " Geeneral Effect " judges to utilized ( used ever since in terms of basic " GE " caption constructs ) made it quite clear that " General Effect " had to do with ( his words )" how well the music, drill, guard was integrated together in the design of the show compared with other units in competition" The key word here being show " intergration ". The " General Effect " Caption would be allotted points on how the show... in design... effected " him " as the GE Judge, and " him " alone. Right. Modern effect is based on the Triad of Effect: artistic, aesthetic, and intellectual. The word "entertainment" isn't found on the sheets or rubric at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) Good point. If it were just pure entertainment value over artistic achievement we would have girls in bikinis and a dude in a banana suit running around the field...not that there's anything wrong with that :-) We need not worry. Corps that utilized " girls in bikinis and " dudes in bannans suits " died in short order for such utilization, despite the roaring crowds. Replaced with Corps that win on " artistic achievement " and receive polo match level claps, yawns, or looks of bewilderment, confusion, angst with many that still come out to the DCI shows. Edited July 21, 2013 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasgre2000 Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 I think judges should stick to the sheets...notice it states multiple times to look for audience engagement. I think the real question is do they actually do that? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/104151822/DCI-World-Class-Judging-Sheets.pdf Why should that be on the sheets though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasgre2000 Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Your poll offered 2 choices. 2 choices alone on your question of " what should scores be based upon ?". Its like starting a poll for ice cream preferred flavors, and you offered up " Chocolate Chip " and " Rum Raisin " as the only 2 possible choices ( as you preferred " Chocolate Chip " ). And why does the answer be one of the other, as well ? Right now, all we should be able to agree on here with the 2 choices you provided to us is that " show design " has a a HUGE role on the current scoring sheets, whereas " performance profiency " plays a secondary role on the current scoring sheets. The better question ( of these 2 ) might be the question around perhaps providing more balance among these 2 things on the sheets, instead of a choice between one or the other. I do agree with you that today, more than ever before, that it is the adults that are being judged much more on the current judging sheets than the young performers in their performance. Under the tick system it was more the performer being judged. Today, under the build up system, show design points are found throughout most all the captions. For example, the 2013 Phantom Regiment MM's could execute almost to perfection their show, but it has no chance of winning a DCI Title this year. Thats because the Corps ahead of them have adults that created a show design that can be imperfectly executed but will have " show design " points to be had up the wazzoo to enable their Corps to garner points in the current judging sheets by August. Phantom is not alone in this either. Cavs, Madison, Bluecoats... and I submit even SCV, can not do so, as the judges like the eclectic, the complex, the highly new and creative, and the demanding shows much more, and points are to be had come August if there is just a modicum of performance execution in these top 3 Corps. What sets Corps 1-3 from Corps 4- 12 or so, in not so much " performance abilities " ( they all can play, move, and march pretty close in talent levels together ). Its Show Design. And thats the Adults. They're being judged out on the field more so than the performers, especially within the World Class Division. You're referring to the title of the post, which is probably not a very good one. The poll question is which should be more important between these two factors. I don't agree with you that the designers are being judged more than the performers, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKT90 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 1374436979[/url]' post='3291109']Why should that be on the sheets though? Personally, it would be nice if crowd reaction counted for something. It might, but sometimes it doesn't seem so, partly because a lot of shows don't have a oh wow how cool was that moment (e.g Cadets '90 Z pull). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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