Wadep66 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Judging threads tend to keep rehashing these same arguments. This is like the discussions often overheard when people talk about which films they do and don't like. Many oscar winners were not big box office hits, and for the same reason the most popular show doesn't always win. My take on it is that: It's fun to be wowed by fun music at high volume really fast. You'd get tired of it if that's all there were. It's also fun to watch a show that evokes emotion, thought, or even thought after watching it. This is so subjective that it is IMPOSSIBLE, yes IMPOSSIBLE to come up with a judging system that everyone will think is fair and drive the activity the way they personally want to see it go. It seems to me that there are as many folks coming to the shows as there were ten years ago. If the judging and playing to the sheets is killing drum corps, it's doing so at a rate so slow we'll all be dead when it finally happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 No matter how much i love jersey surf's show, no matter how fun and entertaining it is, they should not make finals unless they play well enough to make finals. The criteria for judging is purely proficiency. They even said despite the changes to the sheets looking for audience engagement, at the end of the day the corps that wins will be the one that performs the best. To have it any other way would be disgusting. Well i dislike bluecoats show or i dislike spirit's show. They shouldnt make finals. I dont find bd's show to be entertaining, well we wont even see them at semis now will we. Wow genesis' show is really entertaining! They make top 6 at finals! Doesnt that just sound bad? It doesn't sound bad at all... this is the other part of the equation that many people miss. When people talk about "audience engagement", something Surf is pulling from the VK/Bridge manual, some of the responses are exactly this... at first glance, it says "they have to be good though". Yep. You're absolutely right. This is the other side of the coin; achievement cannot be left behind, and again one without the other isn't helpful. But it isn't mutually exclusive. In the judging world, definitions are important. Proficiency is to do something well. Achievement is often attributed to doing the difficult proficiently. AKA, you can't get in Box 5 with Hot Cross Buns. So with your statement in mind, do you believe that the 2008 Regiment Spartacus show should have lost? It certainly was not the highest in proficiency or achievement that night. Personally I thought it was the epitome of what drum corps should be; it reached back and told a story, and was performed with the greatest passion on that night while maintaining a very high level of achievement. If we're all intellectually honest, the Blue Devils that night were clinical, clean, and the highest achievers. Those kids performed great and clearly were the highest technical achievers. In the end, BD ended up with an unlikely 9.4 in drums... ...but to have it any other way would be.... "disgusting"? Look, it's a monumental task to quantify this stuff into a single number, but that's what has to be done. How that number is arrived at will ALWAYS be debated. But my thesis is the same... "achievement" and "audience engagement" are not mutually exclusive, and to judge that way is not appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 This is like the discussions often overheard when people talk about which films they do and don't like. Many Oscar winners were not big box office hits... Several Oscar winners are now considered to be bad films. And very few Oscar winners are considered great films, in retrospect. You could probably count on one hand the number of Oscar-winning films that appear in even the top 100 entrants on the decennial Sight & Sound best films poll, for example. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) No matter how much i love jersey surf's show, no matter how fun and entertaining it is, they should not make finals unless they play well enough to make finals. Who thinks otherwise ? There might be a few who thinks Jersey Surf should make Finals because of their populist entertainment perceived values. But my guess, this number would equal those in national numbers who believe that BD should not make Finals this year because their show this year is unlikeable. Both camps are sort of extreme in their assessment, and few in number. Lets see if we can work closer to the mainstream here, where we strike a balance between the need for proper proficency to place high and the ability to connect to audiences with the profiency on display. There HAVE been shows that have won with both the judges AND national audiences, but it is way, WAY too rare an occurance now these days in an activity that tells us its wants to grow the national audience base from its current numbers. Does anybody here really believe that ( for example ) BD would design these types of shows if " audience engagement " was somehow factored into the scoring ? And lets not assume that noone has to find entertainment appeal here in order for BD to score high. Judges do. They are in "the audience" afterall. The judge is looking to be moved ( "entertained" if you will ) by the demand, complexity, creativity, integration of the sections. These judges see and hear the Corps over the course of 9 weeks. They are TOLD what the theme is, and they get feedback from the show designer. The 1 or 2 show audience member gets little of this. They get a 12 minute look and evaluation. They look at the shows thru their own personal tastes, experiences, likes, wants and needs. They are " judges " too. And there are thousands more of them too. Unlike DCI judges who are paid, these " judges " pay good money for the opportunity to be moved by the shows. They should not, can not, be neglected long term. Edited July 22, 2013 by BRASSO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 The criteria for judging is purely proficiency. And so we're asking for proficiency at entertaining the audience to be part of the equation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 No matter how much i love jersey surf's show, no matter how fun and entertaining it is, they should not make finals unless they play well enough to make finals. Same thing from a different direction: No matter how proficient, no matter how perfect, a show like BD's Cabaret Voltaire Dada should not win Gold unless they are entertaining a very high percentage of the paying audience. The criteria for judging is purely proficiency. They even said despite the changes to the sheets looking for audience engagement, at the end of the day the corps that wins will be the one that performs the best. Wrongo in that scoring is purely based on proficiency: If that were the case a corps could perform John Cage's 4:33 without any mistakes and subsequently take home the Gold. I can also show you mallet drops from a so-called 'perfect' score 20 drum lines, I can show you equipment misalignment from so-called 'perfect' 20 visuals; scoring in DCI is not about proficiency but about convincing a judge that a particular aspect is at maximum level (which once again is mere opinion). To have it any other way would be disgusting. Well i dislike bluecoats show or i dislike spirit's show. They shouldnt make finals. I dont find bd's show to be entertaining, well we wont even see them at semis now will we. Wow genesis' show is really entertaining! They make top 6 at finals! Get real; no one is stating anything concerning judging with that type of ambiguity. But what people are saying is that there is currently a HUGE disconnect between what the 'paying public' wants to see/hear compared to what the ivory tower educated judges want to see/hear. What y'all who advocate for the highly proficient Dada Rabbit on LSD in an Outhouse winning DCI need to realize is that without the paying public the judges will be unemployed and the thousands of youth performers will be playing in an empty oil-can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 How do you discern the difference between engagement and entertainment? engagement..well ok, i went down to the root, engage: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/engage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 audience response can't be used. way too many factors could go into it, especially location Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) engagement..well ok, i went down to the root, engage: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/engage Ok; let's utilize the dictionary definitions of the word 'engage' which are applicable to DCI and see who was engaged with the BD Cabaret Voltaire Dada show and the Cadets The Zone show (both Gold Medal Winners): - to occupy the attention or efforts of a person or persons - Judges would be definite Yes; Audience would be mostly No (while the audience did watch the show most of them were just confused). - to attract and hold fast; to attract or please - Judges would be definite Yes; Audience would be mostly No (according to their reaction of those shows compared to their reaction to many other corps shows). Hmmmmmmmm... interesting. It appears that, according to the Judges, the Audience is mostly made up of a bunch of Dunderheads. Edited July 23, 2013 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Ok; let's utilize the dictionary definitions of the word 'engage' which are applicable to DCI and see who was engaged with the BD Cabaret Voltaire Dada show: - (to occupy the attention or efforts of a person or persons) Judges would be definite Yes; Audience would be mostly No. There's no question that audiences attentions were held by Devils performances last year. You don't have to like a show or throw babies to be engaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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