Gender Inequality

[BRASSO]

Would be cool to see a woman run a drum corps, but I don't want it to be some gift in the name of "equality". Like anything else, they would have to put in the years of service to move up the ladder to run a corps.

Same here. The person that assumes the leadership role must be experienced and qualified no matter the gender. We don't need Affirmative Action type mandated policies to promote simply by virtue of race, gender, etc for some perceived percentage goals here.

But we should also perhaps keep in mind here that some very capable male Corps Directors of some very top elite Corps, (including DCI Title winning Corps) over the years never marched ( nor taught ) in a Drum Corps in their lives before later becoming the Corps Director.

Edited August 12, 2013 by BRASSO

[Shadowtron]

No.. I did not call Acheson a " sexist ". Its not even worth a reply. I think that concluding this from my remarks here would be Shadowtron just going off the deep end in this thread, thats all.

Post after post claiming "DCI" is sexist without any evidence. What exactly is DCI? It's a very small organization over there in Indy. Who at DCI headquarters is sexist? If not them, which member corps?

It feels good to throw out accusations, but you need to be able to back them up.

[GUARDLING]

and maybe a woman never wanted that position...lol..after all we all know women are smarter :smile:/> Edited August 12, 2013 by GUARDLING

[skywhopper]

I'm not against a woman or women being in leadership positions. But if we have a call to arms for a woman being appointed to the board or any other leadership position in DCI does that solve the problem? Does it need to be 50/50? Where does race get justice in this debate? Does a Black women get preference over a white, or a white women over someone from China?

Quotas are not the answer. On the other hand, hiring decisions aren't as clear-cut as you make them. There's never a fixed slate of applicants with obvious rankings in which your scenario of "preferences" makes any sense. However, all other things being equal, more often than not choosing a candidate that brings a new perspective to your organization is the best choice. That different perspective might be in where they grew up or how they came to drum corps or what their education was or yes what gender and race they are. But it's the hard choice to make sometimes, to choose someone who's *more* different from you.

[skywhopper]

Brasso my point is that anything less than equal, 50/50, is accepting inequality. We'll never reach true equality. What's acceptable to you isn't going to be acceptable to someone else.

I think the current situation is so far away from 50/50 that it's worth discussing if anything could be done. It's not a matter of whether anyone is "sexist", just a matter of trying to figure out why there's such a wild disparity at the director/design staff/caption head level that doesn't exist and hasn't existed in DCI's membership ever.

How do caption heads and judges and board of director members of the various corps get chosen? Are there open interview processes going on to give everyone a chance and find the best person? Unlikely. I'm guessing it's generally be a matter of someone knowing someone and offering them the job. When it's 99% men in charge, turns out that most of their friends are also men, and so the people they "know" the best are men, and that's just who they go with. So whenever those decisions are getting made, the people doing the choosing should be asking themselves if they are overlooking qualified folks who they just don't happen to have a connection with, who maybe are younger or whatever. They need to be asking themselves if they are encouraging the right people in their own instructional ranks to take on more leadership roles, and don't just stick with the people who push their way into those roles.

Just some ideas here. No one is talking about forcing anyone to do anything. But I think the lack of women at top levels in the activity is something we should be talking about. Jumping straight to reactions against quotas and sexism and 50/50 doesn't help.

[GUARDLING]

I think the current situation is so far away from 50/50 that it's worth discussing if anything could be done. It's not a matter of whether anyone is "sexist", just a matter of trying to figure out why there's such a wild disparity at the director/design staff/caption head level that doesn't exist and hasn't existed in DCI's membership ever.

How do caption heads and judges and board of director members of the various corps get chosen? Are there open interview processes going on to give everyone a chance and find the best person? Unlikely. I'm guessing it's generally be a matter of someone knowing someone and offering them the job. When it's 99% men in charge, turns out that most of their friends are also men, and so the people they "know" the best are men, and that's just who they go with. So whenever those decisions are getting made, the people doing the choosing should be asking themselves if they are overlooking qualified folks who they just don't happen to have a connection with, who maybe are younger or whatever. They need to be asking themselves if they are encouraging the right people in their own instructional ranks to take on more leadership roles, and don't just stick with the people who push their way into those roles.

Just some ideas here. No one is talking about forcing anyone to do anything. But I think the lack of women at top levels in the activity is something we should be talking about. Jumping straight to reactions against quotas and sexism and 50/50 doesn't help.

like it or not most women in the activity ..( not all ) never say all.....lol,..lets say April Gilligan ( cadets for many many years ) was under famous name males ..only when she was basically thrown to the wolves and actually If I remember correctly because Cadets were in trouble ( cant remember why or the other staff head) she stepped into the position. I think maybe she was a tech and for another part of the corps........the rest is history

[BRASSO]

Post after post claiming "DCI" is sexist without any evidence. What exactly is DCI? It's a very small organization over there in Indy. Who at DCI headquarters is sexist? If not them, which member corps?

It feels good to throw out accusations, but you need to be able to back them up.

Skywhopper poster above was kind enough to cite the evidence data regarding the lack of Woman in leadersehip positions at the Executive Directorship level of Corps. It was 0 % of the 42 Corps until the Colts elevated a Woman to Corps Directorship status at this Corrps.... Its still just 1 Woman out of 42 Corps. Some BOD of Corps have 0% Woman on their Board. The DCI FInals had only 1 Woman judge out of 9 ( and she split the caption with a male judge ). There is not a single Woman judge thats been hired in DCI in decades. There is not a single Woman judge that DCI currently has that is under 50 years of age. DCI is chock full of female MM's that march, and instruct, and have for over 3 decades. The fact that females however are almost entirely devoid in most leadership positions throughout the DCI corps leadership ranks is appalling. The excuses we hear that " the job is travel demanding "... or " does not pay well "... or " maybe Woman did not apply for the job "... or " people respond better to male suprevosors than female supervisors ", and yada yada yada are precisely the same tired old excuses we used to hear in the business world, and the education field, in the 60's and 70's. It did not fly then. It does not fly now. Besides, Woman don't want to be the only female in the room when 42 male Corps Directors get together to discuss the rules and plans for the DCI future. Sexism does not have to be overt. It can be unintended, and covert in nature. It can be systemic. When woman make up 50% of the population, and close to that in Drum Corps, but make up only from 0% to 5% of leadership positions the the Corps Directorship and Corps BOD levels, then there is something clearly amiss. Nobody really believes that there are not enough eligible, qualified, and eager Woman ready, willing, and able, to assume leadership positions at levels higher than at these appalling levels.

Edited August 12, 2013 by BRASSO

[soccerguy315]

The DCI BOD is made up of corps directors, except for one at large member...

These are the most recent eleted BOD members...I don't know who the at large member is.

Mark Arnold (Blue Knights)

Roman Blenski (Pioneer)

Jim Coates (Carolina Crown)

Jeff Fiedler (Santa Clara Vanguard)

David Gibbs (Blue Devils)

George Hopkins (Cadets)

Chris Komnick (Madison Scouts)

Fred Morrison (Crossmen)

In this scenario, how is it possible for DCI to become more gender equal on the BOD if 8 of 9 members are corps directors?

good point.

Perhaps the underlying cause is that the G7 are sexist?

[GUARDLING]

Skywhopper poster above was kind enough to cite the evidence data regarding the lack of Woman in leadersehip positions at the Executive Directorship level of Corps. It was 0 % of the 42 Corps until the Colts elevated a Woman to Corps Directorship status at this Corrps.... Its still just 1 Woman out of 42 Corps. Some BOD of Corps have 0% Woman on their Board. The DCI FInals had only 1 Woman judge out of 9 ( and she split the caption with a male judge ). There is not a single Woman judge thats been hired in DCI in decades. There is not a single Woman judge that DCI currently has that is under 50 years of age. DCI is chock full of MM's that march, and instruct, and have for over 3 decades. The fact that females however are almost entirely devoid in most leadership positions throughout the DCI corps leadership ranks is appalling. The excuses we hear that " the job is travel deamanding "... or " does not pay well "... or " maybe Woman did not apply for the job "... or " people respond better to male suprevosors than female supervisors ", are precisely the excuses we used to hear in the business world, and the education field, in the 60's. It did not fly then. It does not fly now. Besides, Woman don't want to be the only female in the room when 42 male Corps Directors get together to discuss the rules and plans for the DCI future. Sexism does not have to be overt. It can be unintended, and covert in nature. It can be systemic. When woman make up 50% of the population, and close to that in Drum Corps, but make up only from 0% to 5% of leadership positions the the Corps Directorship and Corps BOD levels, then there is something clearly amiss, as nobody really believes that there are not enough eligible, qualified, and eager Woman ready, willing, and able, to assume leaderahip levels higher than at these appalling levels.

alot of those reason...( although maybe not be what some would think ) are actually true...again you are also assuming that theres a bunch of females looking for these positions.

I will throw something else into this theory. In my experience I have seen more women MOVE ON from the activity then males in the activity. Even some of the great females who have been part of the activity for many years in a few corps left or went back only on a very part time basis when they had kids or decided there might be more to life or whatever personal reasons. have some as I said earlier been passed over for whatever reason...yepp for sure..BUT are many looking for what dominated by males..hmmmmm maybe a few BUT very few.

Another reason is there also has been hard blasting out some who made careers out of judging etc etc. NOT THAT IT"S BAD but even for many males it can be hard..and as someone else said there also arent alot of people in general breaking doors down..Its a tough job and not alot want it.

[Shadowtron]

People like Brasso will never be satisfied; always looking for victims where there are none. I haven't heard of any examples of qualified women who got passed over. For whatever reason these roles have attracted more men than women. The positions referred to also have very very low turnover and represent marchers from the 70s era of the activity which was male dominated. Today the corps are more gender neutral and soon the leadership will reflect that. No covert racism here. DCI has enough challenges to deal with.