Ohio State University

[jjeffeory]

It's a trade off between simplistic entertainment and the best interests of the musicians themselves. It is an academic institution, remember, and giving some real performing arts experience to the band members - with emotional subtlety and all - may just be more important to your school than pumping up the crowd in the standard way.

Well, I can tell you that OSU's band isn't filled with music majors despite being an academic institution. There simply aren't enough music majors to fill out these larger bands, plus for OSU there are no woodwinds in the band ( there are in Spring Band).

So their purpose is to support the football team, not the music majors.

Eh, I'd like to see what could be done at OSU with a corps style group, but that's not going to happen there.

[jjeffeory]

I haven't heard your band, but IMO the OSU band content is indeed much less educational than a corps-style experience. It's not that it's pop music - pop music has plenty of emotional range (maybe too much, sometimes). It's that OSU removes all the passion from it. It's all played in the same bouncy patriotic mood. Any of the original feeling I get listening to it comes from my associations, not from the band's expression.

So from a GE perspective, ain't much learnin' goin' on. Some technique of course, but that's pretty basic. Any practice is good practice, but are you really pushing your limits of expression in a collegiate band?

Many of the colleges in his area don't have marching bands...

From the ones that do, I've heard George Mason, Howard University, GWU, and the University of Maryland, which is generally where Cappy is.... All of them are pretty much spirit groups....

[jjeffeory]

I go to the University of Virginia. Judge the band for yourself on YouTube I guess haha.

And that goes back to my point originally. Why does the marching band have to be educational per se? What's wrong with just entertaining the crowd? No one does that better than OSU.

[Cappybara]

Many of the colleges in his area don't have marching bands...

From the ones that do, I've heard George Mason, Howard University, GWU, and the University of Maryland, which is generally where Cappy is.... All of them are pretty much spirit groups....

You forgot JMU

[Pete Freedman]

I go to the University of Virginia. Judge the band for yourself on YouTube I guess haha.

And that goes back to my point originally. Why does the marching band have to be educational per se? What's wrong with just entertaining the crowd? No one does that better than OSU.

It doesn't have significant academic value. College students shouldn't be tasked hours per day with training that isn't very relevant to their education. Which brings up a larger point; football doesn't have academic value either. The reason for the football players, the band, the audience and the stadium is pretty much: money. So the question is: Does a collegiate band bring in enough additional money to justify the academic cost in the vapid content being performed.

Quite possibly it does. So I don't really blame the school; obviously they have a package that works in bringing in the fans, which hopefully pays enough to be worth it. Presumably a lot of alumni giving is also related to football and band.

But if you can meet the band halfway, so to speak, by letting they play diverse musical moods, it's better academically, IMO.

[Cappybara]

It doesn't have significant academic value. College students shouldn't be tasked hours per day with training that isn't very relevant to their education. Which brings up a larger point; football doesn't have academic value either. The reason for the football players, the band, the audience and the stadium is pretty much: money. So the question is: Does a collegiate band bring in enough additional money to justify the academic cost in the vapid content being performed.

Quite possibly it does. So I don't really blame the school; obviously they have a package that works in bringing in the fans, which hopefully pays enough to be worth it. Presumably a lot of alumni giving is also related to football and band.

But if you can meet the band halfway, so to speak, by letting they play diverse musical moods, it's better academically, IMO.

Uhm what? I totally see where you're coming from but... I think you're missing the point of an extracurricular. It's just some time to have fun outside of schoolwork. Over 60% of our marching band are NOT music majors or minors. Some of them are even engineers. They're not in it to get educated. They're in it because they were involved in their band community in high school and wanted to continue in college. They want to join Kappa Kappa Psi, enjoy football games together, and play fun tunes in the stands/on the field. Yes, there are some music majors in there but a majority of the band is not in it for getting educated.

If anything, a lot of the band joins it for the leadership experiences as many choose to become drill instructors (they help create and teach the choreography), office staff for the band, or other things like game day uniform/equipment crew.

[Cappybara]

Heh I remember marching that show. Definitely not one of my favorites that year.

[Pete Freedman]

Many of the colleges in his area don't have marching bands...

From the ones that do, I've heard George Mason, Howard University, GWU, and the University of Maryland, which is generally where Cappy is.... All of them are pretty much spirit groups....

And now for the awards ...

Best tune: GMU. Those kids are into it, the tune has nuance that it evolves over time. This video should be a meme; it's just great stuff.

Most talent: Howard dancers. They are semi-pro calibre, if exploitative.

And the most important award (for this thread):

Most valuable educational content: GWU. Clearly the level of subtlety in this corps-style presentation makes it worthwhile from an educational standpoint. However, the show is too negative for a football game. I do think the needs of the market, so to speak, require a show that starts and ends upbeat, even though it can travel through darker woods on the way there. Plenty (!) of drum corps shows do - think Rach Star for an obvious example. Nevertheless, I'd rather be in that band than any of the others in this list. Or Ohio State. UVA, for example, took most of the real passion out of Hawaii-5-0. I'd like to see GWU play that tune. Or better yet Crown. (Hmm... a Crime Drama show ... Mission Impossible theme, the closing credits theme from Bones... this could work).

[Rifuarian]

It doesn't have significant academic value.

It's a purely voluntary extracurricular, unless you're a music educational major (and this is not always the case). And the academic value of marching band to a music education major is pretty obvious. Music performance majors, and music faculty as well, tend to look down on marching band and drum corp too for that matter. Which is what makes your argument so hilarious. You're trying to separate drum corps from marching band based on "academic value", yet actual academics - winds professors in particular - tend to lump marching band and drum corps into what they might generously term "crap".

And what makes you think that college bands are meant to bring in money? They're more about tradition and fun than anything else. Heck, in the grand scheme of things football teams don't really bring in that much money. The most valuable team in football is Texas Longhorns, which is worth around $120 million. Sounds like a lot, right? But UTA's endowment is six billion dollars. Sports makes chump change for most universities, and almost all of that money gets dumped right back into athletics.

While we're at it, why does drum corps have to be educational? I still can't help but laugh when a corps calls its staff "faculty" and its members "students". If you're joining drum corps purely for education you're getting very poor value for your money. If you're joining drum corps because it's fun, because you think it's cool, and because it's . . . well because it's drum corps then you're getting great value for your money.

[Pete Freedman]

It's a purely voluntary extracurricular, unless you're a music educational major (and this is not always the case). And the academic value of marching band to a music education major is pretty obvious. Music performance majors, and music faculty as well, tend to look down on marching band and drum corp too for that matter. Which is what makes your argument so hilarious. You're trying to separate drum corps from marching band based on "academic value", yet actual academics - winds professors in particular - tend to lump marching band and drum corps into what they might generously term "crap".

And what makes you think that college bands are meant to bring in money? They're more about tradition and fun than anything else. Heck, in the grand scheme of things football teams don't really bring in that much money. The most valuable team in football is Texas Longhorns, which is worth around $120 million. Sounds like a lot, right? But UTA's endowment is six billion dollars. Sports makes chump change for most universities, and almost all of that money gets dumped right back into athletics.

While we're at it, why does drum corps have to be educational? I still can't help but laugh when a corps calls its staff "faculty" and its members "students". If you're joining drum corps purely for education you're getting very poor value for your money. If you're joining drum corps because it's fun, because you think it's cool, and because it's . . . well because it's drum corps then you're getting great value for your money.

I disagree with most of this...

1. If music majors are required to do it, it should further their academic goals. Their time is precious.

2. I's sure many music teachers do dismiss drum corps and marching band as pointless, but only when they don't really understand drum corps. I doubt any music teacher a Juilliard would say that an activity that returns their kids in the spring better than they left in the fall is crap. They are dealing with backsliding during the summer doldrums - those who practice only three hours a day in their bedroom instead of the five you need to show commitment (my guesses as to the numbers there). Drum corps gives them 8-10 hours a day, seven days a week, all summer long, with instructors, peers, and an order of magnitude more concerts than they will experience the rest of the year. Yes there is much snobbery in the music world, but the quality teachers see the educational value.

3. As far as money is concerned; I only brought it up because that's the stated reason colleges give for having the football program at all. Without the money there's certainly no reason to present anemic renditions of great tunes. I doubt it even makes a financial difference; that's my point. However, the endowment is money invested, not money they get each year. Those investments are probably low risk, low yield, so if they are getting 3% of 6 billion that's $180 million. So the sports money is comparable, although in no way am I defending the actual ROI of the football program, only that they claim it's an important part of their finances.

4. All I'm saying is add some life to marching bands. They don't have to be dark or inaccessible to be nuanced. They just have to stop imposing this constant bouncy mood onto everything they do. Play a show with heart. GMU's music was excellent; what football audience would be turned off by that? And it's looks even more fun to boot.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Pete Freedman