When was the last time this was discussed?

[nemesiscorps]

Ok, wow.

I'm totally calling your bluff on this one. What corps did you march (and when) that it was tougher to achieve QF's, Semis, or Finals than it is today? How much harder did you train back in the day than they do today? And that by adding "off field performance achievement (which actually requires work)" to the score would be more impressive somehow.

Bluff? Not sure what you mean there, but...

I marched Pioneer in the early 80's, and went on to march drum corps in the USMC. The years I marched, like everyone else, we put in 8-10 hours a day, and had the benefit of learning from some incredibly talented instructors, designers, and administrators, many of which are now legends in the activity, and/or DCI and DCA Hall of Fame members.

Sitting here, I don't even recall our exact competitive placements in Miami or Atlanta, but I recall our competitive groups including corps like San Jose Raiders, Glassmen, Blue Knights, and others. There were a ton of corps, many of which I'd never even heard of, and championships week was an all-day sucker, from early morning to late at night. With all of those corps, no one knew how things would shake out, but you worked your butt off to make it into the next show. It was a big deal for us making the Quarterfinals in 1983, and for some reason, that quarterfinalist patch on my corps jacket is still meaningful to me.

Throughout my rookie season, I remember vividly getting my face blown off weekend after weekend at local midwest shows, standing on the stadium tracks watching Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, Madison Scouts and others, and believing I didn't have what it took to make it in a corps like those. My instructors told me otherwise, but more importantly, they told me that I didn't need to feel inferior about who I was or what I was capable of doing. At the same time, they instilled in me how great it would be to be a part of elevating my own corps to higher and higher levels. I was skeptical.

With that, they basically forced me to compete in the DCM I&E soprano competition, where I'd compete one-on-one with those same Madison Scouts, Cavaliers, and Regiment members. I'd never even entered a solo and ensemble competition in school, let alone in an arena with such calibre of players as comprised many of those DCM "God corps." I won... and it completely changed me.

I became obsessed with drum corps, Pioneer, and getting the people around me to believe in who they were and who Pioneer was in this activity.

When I joined the Marine Corps, I marched alongside Madison, Phantom, and Cavalier alums... and I was the soloist. After my tour of duty, I came back to Pioneer and poured myself into pushing Pioneer to prominence with RB Jr. and several other Pioneer alums. We literally stated back in 1989 that our goal was to "become the Blue Devils of Division III," ... and then Division II, and we worked those local kids like never before in a positive, loving environment... and they believed and achieved quite a handful of DCM, Canadian, and DCI Divisional Championship titles.

I left Pioneer in 1994 when new instructors from outside the corps (non-alumni) began to cut kids that had been marching Pioneer loyally for 5 or more years, instead giving spots to the more talented snare drummer from Texas, etc. I was heartbroken at what was happening. The corps excelled throughout the mid to late 90's, and placed as high as 16th before the end of the decade, but the atmosphere was not enough to draw me back in because it seemed all about the "business of drum corps." All it took to stop that fast moving train was one or two years of competitive stagnation... and kids stopped coming to Milwaukee to march, and of course by then the local roots had long since been severed, and the corps hasn't recovered competitively since. Thankfully, they've returned to becoming primarily a values-based institution, giving kids Pioneer's unique experience and style of drum corps. Most of those kids move on after a year or two.

Today, the activity is much different, obviously, but my heart is still stuck with how my corps experience changed my life, and so many others that I've worked with over the years. I have three sons that have also marched drum corps, one of whom marched 2 years with Pioneer, and 6 years with SCV, ultimately aging out as the drum major. My twins marched 3 years with me in the Kilties All-Age, then under the direction of my good friend Scott Stewart, and they are now in their last of 4 years with the Santa Clara Vanguard.

Sadly, I know that I'm done with all of this at the end of this season. My motivation now gone, it took me almost a year to even get back on DCP for one final "let's test the water" endeavor with this thread. Unfortunately, I known there's no place left for a kid to experience drum corps like I and others did BITD, and that is what I'm passionate about, and I fully understand why those that share my focus in passion have long since left the building.

Not sure what I'll do moving forward, but I know it will involve music and youth development opportunities in some form for those that need it most, but I really wish it could be serving kids in drum corps.

Thanks for asking.

[N.E. Brigand]

If talking bingo, let's not think things are equal all over the state. In my area local bingo got squeezed out by a bigger company that basically ran the church/fire company bingos into the ground with big payouts, etc. Then of course cut back when the competition went under.

Well, one response would be that those churches and fire companies should have done "the work to get better" than that competition and that we shouldn't "nerf" that company for being successful.

[N.E. Brigand]

NEB, as an aside, I think an important discussion would be to compare corps within California and under the same bingo laws. Let's say, why do BD and SCV achieve at one level and PC and Mandarins at another? Which units are working better, working differently, or not working to full potential?

That could indeed be a valuable discussion.

[nemesiscorps]

first bit: "way back in 99" (the great thing about the 90's is that they're either Old School or Relatively Modern, depending who you talk to), I went to a Colts end-of-season-appreciation event. Remember that Blood, Sweat, & Tears show? killer. anyways: they played a 'director's cut' version of their show, it was something like 14 minutes long with extended solos and even more Park/Bark. crowd went nuts, ton of fun.

second bit: from what I know casually about golf, there's one event every year in which the traditional environment of calm is replaced with a raucous atmosphere.

I told you that so I could propose this:

one show per year, maybe it alternates regionals (though it would have to start as an experimental small show, of course), a 'No Rules' show. or at least 'fewer rules.' extend the time limits, allow guest performers, set up some boundaries that keep it reasonable but generally allow Different Fun Things. different type of judging, maybe your fan interaction here.

now I know that this would create some griping from arrangers/fans who believe that the intricacy and consistent narrative of the performance and the vision, etc, is the virtue. and hey, those corps would be free to play their regular show and move on. and certainly corps in the thick of competition would probably not want to devote a ton of time away from their 'real' show for the sake of this. or heck, they don't even have to go to the thing. the participation details would require some more thinking. but the point:

the first benefit is that it could be a lot of fun.

the second benefit is relevant to this thread: it would be something else to win.

As it stands currently, the 'major regionals' serve as stepping-stones and measures of competition. but corps don't Brag about winning the San Antonio Regional for any longer than it takes to get to the Atlanta regional.

as a fan, how many regular season show results do you remember and call meaningful?

other than when the 'Coats beat the Devils in Michigan that one time a while ago, i can't think of a non-finals show in which the result was of lasting significance.

basically turn the Spirit of Disney Award into its own show. if it takes off, you've got this completely new type of Championship Belt. if it doesn't, well then there was still a show.

the 'fun' element of this is a whim. the salient point is that one way to increase the competitive element would be to increase the number of competitions with results that Matter. in the way that college football teams brag about beating so and so, or hype up their rivalry trophies. as it stands, creating intra-season competition can be difficult once the field seperates into packs and the competition becomes a slow inching of captions.

if you disagree with me in re significance of individual show results, feel free. But we are having a discussion about competition in which only one day matters, so perhaps one solution isn't a macro evolution but an expanding of accolades? would corps then take Pride in winning the 'Velvet Knight Invitational' from year to year? would that create a prize that doesn't Equal the Big One, but is still worth mention?

don't call it a solution, becuase I didn't call out a problem. but gee whiz this hypothetical event is a good time when I think about it. there could even be a championship belt.

Absolutely!

That would probably be the one show per year that I would attend and take others to (including if it meant traveling a significant distance). And yes, I could see an online component where the "winner" is selected by those present and in cyberspace that were most moved by the performance, and perhaps even sponsored by some entities that are all about fun and entertainment, sort of like drum corps' version of a "bowl game," with all the festivities that go with it.

I can only image how many other great ideas could be looming out there, but we seem to be stuck in debate on if anything is even needed (IMO).

I REALLY appreciate your contribution here.

Edited February 10, 2015 by nemesiscorps

[JimF-LowBari]

Well, one response would be that those churches and fire companies should have done "the work to get better" than that competition and that we shouldn't "nerf" that company for being successful.

Funny part is that company got hit for some legal or financial funny stuff. Either forget the details or they never came out.

Some time after all Bingo halls had to go non-smoking which just killed a lot of business. If I ever go by seconf hand smoke I know I got it from working corps Bingo in the pre-smoking ban days. Nothing like 15 degrees and driving with the car window open because you can't stand the smell. (Cop who pulled me over in a pot buying area agreed: "Why is your window down" "Just got out of working Bingo at the Fire Hall take a whiff". "Wow... OK.. you can go". ).

Edited February 10, 2015 by JimF-LowBari

[nemesiscorps]

Well, one response would be that those churches and fire companies should have done "the work to get better" than that competition and that we shouldn't "nerf" that company for being successful.

[Pete Freedman]

You do know the history of the activity, I assume, and that as recent as the 80's where there were more than double the current number of corps at performances during finals week, right? More competitive units=less groups advancing to the next "round" of competition.

Right. By tough I thought he meant the level of effort of the corps members over the season. But I think you and Bill are right that he means tougher to know where you stand because there are so many competitors. So there was much more uncertainty about placements, and undoubtedly more shock, relief and surprise when one made Prelims, for instance.

But that of course is a factor of how many corps there are, which hasn't been the topic of this thread.

[Pete Freedman]

Absolutely!

That would probably be the one show per year that I would attend and take others to (including if it meant traveling a significant distance). And yes, I could see an online component where the "winner" is selected by those present and in cyberspace that were most moved by the performance, and perhaps even sponsored by some entities that are all about fun and entertainment, sort of like drum corps' version of a "bowl game," with all the festivities that go with it.

I can only image how many other great ideas could be looming out there, but we seem to be stuck in debate on if anything is even needed (IMO).

I REALLY appreciate your contribution here.

We agree completely! As long as it doesn't affect championship scores and placements, it's all good. In fact it would be very good.

[31rabbit]

there would be much risk reward complication to such an event, it could probably have its own thread under the 'pipe-dream' umbrella. but I didn't mean to hijack a Serious Discussion with a 'what if...', regardless of how it makes my chops salivate.

the salient point that may have gotten lost in my fun revery is that we talk as if there is only one thing worth winning per year. the real tech heads talk about caption awards, but even they will tend to limit the discussion to captions won at Finals.

How can the Regular Season of Drum Corps be made to matter more in terms of individual shows? are there other Accolades that can be competed for which will merit recall and significance but won't take away from the Big Prize? a tricky rope to walk, but likely an easier and more palatable solution to competitive redundancy than trying to reroute the glacier of 'rich get richer.'

[N.E. Brigand]

I can't speak for SCV, but I can tell you that if bingo was gone tomorrow, the Blue Devils would continue to be successful. They don't put all their eggs in one basket administratively and fiscally.

And kudos to BD for diversifying, and, yes, that's what all corps should be doing. BD having the foresight to spread their eggs across many baskets is surely part of what has made them successful. Other corps should be doing the same, absolutely.

But regardless, if BD's bingo were suddenly to cease operations, and BD were to lose, say, 20% of their annual income, it would probably take them a few years to increase their other sources of funding to make up the difference. During that time, maybe they couldn't afford all of their current top-tier staff, or maybe they'd have to increase their membership dues thus driving some highly talented but financially-challenged potential members elsewhere, or some combination of those things--and we might see BD's placements drop a few spots (like, they'd average third place) until they returned to full funding.

What I'm saying is that it seems inappropriate to say in such circumstances that BD isn't working hard enough. And expanding that proposition to note that other catastrophes of like nature have happened to many corps. There's not much that can be done about this. I'm not proposing revenue sharing. I'm simply reiterating a point that's been raised before, and which in one form dates back at least to Jeff Fiedler's remarks when the Cavaliers voted against the use of amplification: that corps should think harder about the financial implications of rule changes, even when supported by a majority, for all their members, not just those who can most easily afford them, because if too many new rules are implemented too quickly, then some corps are forced either to go bankrupt trying to pay for them or to forgo such "optional" expenses (which are actually required because the judges penalize corps who don't use them) and be relegated to non-competitive status, or as he put it at the time:

"Consider the financial implications of keeping up with the 'Joneses': Bb instruments, amplification, saxes, 180 members... when does it end, and when do organizations spend more time strengthening their infrastructure, improving their instruction, food, experience for their members?"

So for instance, right after the any-brass rule was passed last year, there was a link from these forums to a podcast among whose participants was a drum corps and marching band judge (one for whose opinion you've expressed admiration). He complained about a marching band that had performed some famous classical piece, originally written for a chorus of French horns, on a different instrument. If he were to bring that attitude to drum corps, that presumably means that if he thinks a piece of music would sound better if played on a set of French horns or trombones, corps who don't use those instruments risk receiving a lower musical effect score from him. So even groups who don't want to spend that money now have to do so, or see their placements go down, which makes them less attractive to new members, which results in even lower placements the next year, etc., all of which has nothing to do with whether the corps is working hard enough.

It's at this point that someone will chime in with the silly response that no corps ever folded due to the cost of an amp, so I will reply in advance by pointing out that Fielder's remarks weren't about any one change but about the cumulative cost of many changes. Compound those with the risks that come with running any operation--like the chance that bingo revenue could disappear--and what you have is a simple plea for respect and understanding.

I work for a non-profit organization that's part of a national collective bargaining unit when dealing with several unions. Every few years, new terms must be negotiated. At such times, the collective works hard to make sure the increases in minimum salaries, benefits, working conditions, etc. to which they accede can be afforded by all the constituent companies, not just the biggest ones. "Our company can afford a 5% salary increase, so your company just has to suck it up" is not an admirable statement. It's that concern I have in mind here.