N.E. Brigand Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Well why would the licensing situation be any better on August 30th than it is on July 15th? I'm willing to believe any rational story, I really do love DCI, but the story's got to make some kind of sense, and they've got to be transparent about it. I still suspect that really either they want you to buy DCI Live! instead, or they've just decided the mid-season audio is too much work for too little revenue. Or both. They could charge me as much for the audio recordings as they would for a mid-season DCI Live! show, and I would be ok with that. But I want to underline that the DCI Live shows simply don't work for me, it's not that I'm trying to be cheap, they wouldn't work for me at any price at all. Audio recordings and live video are two different classes of things, they're not the same, one can't be substituted for the other. And the mid-season audio is valuable, for me, until the moment the finals recordings become available. Last year I bought a round of mid-seasons and then the finals CDs. This year, it looks to me like I'll only be buying the finals CDs, so this is just lost revenue for DCI. Or it's simply bad, uncaring stewardship of the activity. Repertoires are settled by what? March or April? And they can't get the rights issues worked out, even though they could every prior year? I'd like to hear or read something directly from DCI on this issue. I'm going to mail DCI directly and tell them how I feel about this issue, and I hope others will do that too. There are, I believe, a number of mistakes in your post. For instance, the claim that in "every prior year", DCI was able to acquire the synchronization rights to all the corps' music. The obvious counter-example is "Empire State of Mind", but that's not the only one. Probably everyone on these forums sympathizes with your frustration, and for eight months now, many people here have been complaining about the licensing situation. It came to light in December, when DCI pulled a good number of pre-2000 streams from the Fan Network. There is a general consensus that DCI could have been more forthcoming about what was happening behind the scenes, but over time it became fairly clear that the issue was something like this: A large company acquired the rights to a lot of music (I believe there was a merger; the name of the company has been mentioned a couple times, but I don't remember it). Looking for ways to make more money, this company reviewed all the contracts its predecessor(s) had made with DCI and other licensees. This company decided that DCI was using video in more ways than the company's new, strict reading of the contracts allowed. it sent DCI some cease-and-desist letters. It's much richer than DCI and has a big law firm enforcing its threats. DCI took down the "offending" videos: dozens of pre-2000 shows. DCI's lawyers have been negotiating with the company since then. Apparently live streaming is fine, but it has to be truly live. Later viewing, whether streaming or downloaded, would require DCI to pay some large additional fees, and that's why there are no downloads, and why the streams can only be viewed during the actual show time. At the same time, DCI was apparently also preparing a new video platform. Because the lawyers were arguing back and forth, this platform (1) appeared at the last-possible minute following several delays and (2) was limited to just the live shows, not including even the archived older shows that DCI had felt comfortable leaving up for six months after the problem arose. And now, DCI has even pulled DVDs and Blu-rays from its store. Apparently DCI is attempting to do a complete reset of all its media products, bringing everything into compliance with the new world order. And of course, right now, DCI's staff has to focus on their normal summer duties. (Which ought to answer your June 15 vs. August 30 question--although I won't be surprised if the matter isn't settled by the latter date, either.) The idea that this is all some ploy by DCI to drive up its "Live" sales seems highly unlikely. Some people here with insider connections have said that DCI expects to take a 40% hit in audio-video revenue this summer, but they see no other choice that doesn't open them up to major losses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Aces Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Well why would the licensing situation be any better on August 30th than it is on July 15th? I'm willing to believe any rational story, I really do love DCI, but the story's got to make some kind of sense, and they've got to be transparent about it. I still suspect that really either they want you to buy DCI Live! instead, or they've just decided the mid-season audio is too much work for too little revenue. Or both. They could charge me as much for the audio recordings as they would for a mid-season DCI Live! show, and I would be ok with that. But I want to underline that the DCI Live shows simply don't work for me, it's not that I'm trying to be cheap, they wouldn't work for me at any price at all. Audio recordings and live video are two different classes of things, they're not the same, one can't be substituted for the other. And the mid-season audio is valuable, for me, until the moment the finals recordings become available. Last year I bought a round of mid-seasons and then the finals CDs. This year, it looks to me like I'll only be buying the finals CDs, so this is just lost revenue for DCI. Or it's simply bad, uncaring stewardship of the activity. Repertoires are settled by what? March or April? And they can't get the rights issues worked out, even though they could every prior year? I'd like to hear or read something directly from DCI on this issue. I'm going to mail DCI directly and tell them how I feel about this issue, and I hope others will do that too. The licensing situation very well may NOT be any better on Aug. 30th this year than it was on July 15th. There is a very real possibility that DCI will not be able to sell ANY recordings this year at all.Streaming rights are different than recorded rights. Think about it - when a show is streamed and not archived in any way, the consumer watches/listens to the product once. If a show is archived, the consumer can watch/listen to the product an infinite amount of times. The rights holders want to get paid for the appropriate amount of use of their product. For how complex the issue can be, do a search on DCP for Madisosn's use of "Empire State of Mind" a few years ago. Madison presumably had all of their rights secured (performance, reproduction/mechanical, etc.) well in advance of when they were to use the song in their show. State Farm comes along after that and presumably offers more money to the rights holders for the song for exclusive use for a commercial that they wanted to run for the tenth anniversary of September 11. Wanna guess who won that battle, despite Madison/DCI having a previous agreement already in place? Big, giant gaping hole on the DVDs/Blu-Rays as a result, and that seemed to be the start of a huge mess that keeps getting worse since. Edited July 21, 2015 by Quad Aces 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohbaby Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Yeah, I really hope someone from DCI is reading this forum. I've always bought audio recordings. I am not a bootlegger. I have end of year recordings from years I've turned out for shows, and for years I entirely missed the activity. I've bought mid-season audio and bought audio for individual years and shows I really wanted. I've never in my life bootlegged a show. I'm willing to show DCI my iPod and my computer to prove this. (I think part of what makes me feel strongly about this is that wherever you go now, everyone assumes that everyone else is going to steal as much intellectual property and copyrighted material as they can get away with. It's true for music, it's true for movies, it's true for video games, it's true for e-books. A priori, everyone assumes everyone else is a criminal, and treats them that way.) I think showing up at finals without any kind of musical foreknowledge of the material puts the listener at a real deficit. Holding off selling the mid-season audio isn't going to make me pay for the video because I have a wife and young kids and a career etc etc. I'm not some retiree that can drive around the country seeing shows at my leisure or even block off a weekend night to lock myself in a room and ignore my family to watch the video. I can't make those things work. I've been interrupted by kids five times in the course of typing this one message - honestly! The way I familiarize myself with the shows for a season (before it's over) is to buy the audio and to listen to it on my commutes. That's what makes me want to see the shows. That's the best advertising they have for guys like me. Holding back the audio doesn't make me want to dash out to Austin to see a show, or to pay for a season's worth of video, because these really aren't viable options for me. Holding back the audio wants me to see the shows less, because I can't hear them in my head, I don't know what they even sound like. If they can sell you the video mid-season, I don't get why they can't sell you the audio. I'm really not buying the licensing story. It makes me angry to think I am being manipulated to get some more money out of me. I've spent thousands of dollars on this activity (and I never even marched in it.) I've got CDs, videos, tour shirts, sweaters, I come out for shows whenever I can. I got three day tickets to Indianapolis this year, I'm bringing my wife for the first time in her life, I drag other people to shows whenever I can. I'm a lifelong fan, I'm exactly the kind of fan they want, and if they are ticking me off, then the problem is on their side, not mine. If they're taping the shows, then they have the audio. They sold the mid-season audio last year, and the year before that, and the year before that, and the year before that. Just do the same thing. Might be time to bootleg, I am like you, have always bought the products, but if they want to play seclusion, do so at their own risk and lose paying customers for Youtube I guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The licensing situation very well may NOT be any better on Aug. 30th this year than it was on July 15th. There is a very real possibility that DCI is not able to sell ANY recordings this year at all. Streaming rights are different than recorded rights. Think about it - when a show is streamed and not archived in any way, the consumer watches/listens to the product once. If a show is archived, the consumer can watch/listen to the product an infinite amount of times. The rights holders want to get paid for the appropriate amount of use of their product. For how complex the issue can be, do a search on DCP for Madisosn's use of "Empire State of Mind" a few years ago. Madison presumably had all of their rights secured (performance, reproduction/mechanical, etc.) well in advance of when they were to use the song in their show. State Farm comes along and presumably offers more money to the rights holders for the song for exclusive use for a commercial that they wanted to run for the tenth anniversary of September 11. Wanna guess who won that battle, despite Madison/DCI having a previous agreement already in place? Big, giant gaping hole on the DVDs/Blu-Rays as a result, and that seemed to be the start of a huge mess that keeps getting worse since. Didn't Phantom also have the "then" appropriate rights for that section in 2008 that was cut out of the DVDs until the composer decided......No! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Aces Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Might be time to bootleg, I am like you, have always bought the products, but if they want to play seclusion, do so at their own risk and lose paying customers for Youtube I guess... Define "they". If you believe "they" = DCI, you're barking up the wrong tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Aces Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Didn't Phantom also have the "then" appropriate rights for that section in 2008 that was cut out of the DVDs until the composer decided......No! Good question - not sure. I know the "Empire State of Mind" issue is what brought the situation to the forefront, and when everything hit the fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 For how complex the issue can be, do a search on DCP for Madisosn's use of "Empire State of Mind" a few years ago. Madison presumably had all of their rights secured (performance, reproduction/mechanical, etc.) well in advance of when they were to use the song in their show. State Farm comes along after that and presumably offers more money to the rights holders for the song for exclusive use for a commercial that they wanted to run for the tenth anniversary of September 11. Wanna guess who won that battle, despite Madison/DCI having a previous agreement already in place? Big, giant gaping hole on the DVDs/Blu-Rays as a result, and that seemed to be the start of a huge mess that keeps getting worse since. It's not clear that DCI had actually been able to obtain the synchronization (=video) rights for "Empire State of Mind" in early 2011 and then lost them. It sounds like DCI was told "maybe", or perhaps even "no", and kept trying to get that answer changed to a "yes" over the course of the summer. Possibly the licensing agency went to State Farm to ask if DCI could be granted an exception to what was otherwise an exclusive deal; that would explain why DCI and Madison didn't tell fans from the start that the song would never be available on video. (I'm so glad I got to see that show at Allentown.) Since we're four years past the State Farm commercial, I wonder if DCI could now get the synch rights for that show. Maybe they already have, and they're saving it for the next Blu-ray special edition. As for Phantom Regiment and Spartacus, that is a bizarre case because as Lincoln noted, the DVD was actually sent to customers before DCI had to change the video to remove Loris Tjeknavorian's "Dance of Ecstasy". Apparently DCI believed they had the synchronization rights secured, so either they proceeded without a final signed contract, or the contract included a clause saying that synchronization rights could be revoked if the composer or license holder didn't like the final product, and they never believed that it could be pulled. I only began following DCI closely a year later, but I believe that DCI actually asked customers to return their original DVDs to be exchanged for versions with that music excised. I wonder if anyone actually did so. Wasn't that show issued on one of the special edition Blu-rays? If it was, does it include the missing video, or is that still restricted? The first time I ever heard about DCI encountering licensing problems was in 2003 with the Kiwanis Kavaliers show of Beatles music. In that instance, I believe the show was not issued either on CD or DVD. Given that corps have subsequently performed Beatles music and had it appear on recordings, I wonder if DCI could go back and get that one released now. But there may be earlier instances of which I am not aware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drangin Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) A large company acquired the rights to a lot of music (I believe there was a merger; the name of the company has been mentioned a couple times, but I don't remember it). Tresona (anagram of "treason"). Edited July 21, 2015 by drangin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newdaddy Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I apologize to everyone in this thread. I was a little outraged at not being able to do things as I had before. I guess I should have done more research before I started typing - thanks especially to N. E. Brigand for shedding some light. I do hope DCI and the rights holders are able ultimately to work it out. It's really a high point for my summer and surely that's true for anybody posting on these forums also. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I apologize to everyone in this thread. I was a little outraged at not being able to do things as I had before. I guess I should have done more research before I started typing - thanks especially to N. E. Brigand for shedding some light. I do hope DCI and the rights holders are able ultimately to work it out. It's really a high point for my summer and surely that's true for anybody posting on these forums also. No worries. We're all here to learn from each other, and I make as many mistakes as anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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