PHANTOM 2003

[festive]

See, I hear that story, and all I can think is that if you took any number of people off of the street, you'd be hard pressed to find enough drum corps fans to even equal 10%.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what does that prove? How many people even know what drum corps is? Are you making a case for them having made a judgment against liking it, not knowing what it is?

No, you appear to be making the "because we're a minority, we have to accept minority viewpoints, even when the minority viewpoint in question appears to be an unfair, dismissive generalization" argument. Right?

You seem to be suggesting that a show is automatically better if it appeals to large numbers of people.  If that were true, we should all be on the Coldplay or American Idol forums, instead of DCP.  Certainly we're in an extreme minority as drum corps fans, as you were when you watched Pittsburgh perform.  But is that lack of broad, mainstream appeal really a flaw with either drum corps or Pittsburgh?  I would claim that it is not, but rather that the two performances simply require an appreciation that many people lack.  Since you seem to have this appreciation, I would be careful about referring to it as "the snobbery of (your) own elitism".

No, I'm not suggesting that a show is better if it appeals to large numbers of people. I'm also not suggesting that there's something wrong with clean, technically accurate performance. I'm just saying that a passionate performance, even if it is a little dirty, will be prefered by most people when given the choice of that or a clean, technically accurate, but dull performance that doesn't connect to the audience. I'd rather watch a passionate performance, so I guess I'm part of the 90%. That doesn't mean that I'm faulting Pittsburgh, for anything other than not playing with more passion, value judgments aside. It's a matter of personal preference.

You might be careful about it, but unsupported arguments like the one about Regiment's horn line do appear to me to be snobbish, and I have no intention of being careful about it. Just because people liked it doesn't mean they're wrong or bandwagon jumpers, does it? Particularly when the judges didn't agree with the assessment that the hornline sounded bad?

If lack of mainstream appeal is not a flaw, then it would be hard to argue that having it is a benefit.  There is, of course, the commerical benefit; more people attending means more money, and so Coldplay will make far more money than drum corps.  But intrinsically, does broad mainstream appeal truly give a show more worth?  You seem to be trying to claim that it does, which would be bad news for us drum corps fans.  It would mean that we're wasting our time on an inferior product, and we need to be buying exclusively from the best sellers list, because that's clearly what more people want to hear. 

Broad mainstream appeal and Coldplay comparisons to drum corps are your deal rather than mine. I never made the argument that broad mainstream appeal makes something "good." I just observed that Regiment connected with the audience because of the passion in the performance. And that the hornline wasn't necessarily awful because of a few problems.

What wrong with mainstream appeal, anyway? If people want to like Coldplay, let them like Coldplay. I'm not going to call them bandwagon jumpers of an inferior band, no matter how little I care for their music. It would be a dismissive and unsupported argument based entirely on opinion. Wouldn't it?

If that doesn't sound reasonable to you, then maybe it's worth realizing that sometimes being in the minority isn't such a bad thing.

And sometimes being in the majority isn't a bad thing, either. <**>

I'm constantly amazed at how drum corps fans - who have already chosen to be in the minority of the population - refuse to accept someone whose tastes place them in the minority yet again.

I thought calling Regiment's hornline overrated was a pretty unsupported argument, given that the poster saw one show from the zero yard line and declared the majority viewpoint the result of bandwagon thinking. Be amazed if you want.

Edited July 15, 2005 by festive

[ravedodger]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See, I hear that story, and all I can think is that if you took any number of people off of the street, you'd be hard pressed to find enough drum corps fans to even equal 10%.

I'd say that many recent drum corps vets of the Div 1 corps could easily meet that 10%. I know a lot of them--they are the new drum corps snobs. That's OK. To each his own.

You seem to be suggesting that a show is automatically better if it appeals to large numbers of people.

Since it's invention, the point of music is to entertain and emote. If it's not entertaining, people will not listen to it. Look at Stan Kenton's musical evolution. His orchestra produced hit after hit throughout the 40's and 50's. Kenton later became bored with the same-ol'-same-ol' and took his music to a new plain. When he performed it for his audiences, the audience attendence dropped-off severely, because the loyal fans could no longer dance to his music. He later found his audiences in colleges and univerisities around the country, playing more for the music majors than any other group. Does this sound familiar? Look at DCI. Most drum corps fans listen to only a few DCI corps from each year, lately. When was the last time we, the majority of drum corps fans, liked the better part of the top 12 shows for any given year? 1995? Conveyance usually withstands the test of time--not technical prowess. Look at 1989 SCV for example. Though they won, it was definately not the cleanest show out there that night. SCV connected with the audience so much so that the cameras could even sense the emotion. With this, 1989 SCV won the DCI Classic Countdown a few months ago.

If lack of mainstream appeal is not a flaw, then it would be hard to argue that having it is a benefit.  There is, of course, the commerical benefit; more people attending means more money, and so Coldplay will make far more money than drum corps.  But intrinsically, does broad mainstream appeal truly give a show more worth?  You seem to be trying to claim that it does, which would be bad news for us drum corps fans.  It would mean that we're wasting our time on an inferior product, and we need to be buying exclusively from the best sellers list, because that's clearly what more people want to hear.  If that doesn't sound reasonable to you, then maybe it's worth realizing that sometimes being in the minority isn't such a bad thing.

I'm constantly amazed at how drum corps fans - who have already chosen to be in the minority of the population - refuse to accept someone whose tastes place them in the minority yet again.

Strange logic. Is it 420?

Edited July 15, 2005 by ravedodger

[Lieut. General Effect]

See, I hear that story, and all I can think is that if you took any number of people off of the street, you'd be hard pressed to find enough drum corps fans to even equal 10%.

You seem to be suggesting that a show is automatically better if it appeals to large numbers of people.  If that were true, we should all be on the Coldplay or American Idol forums, instead of DCP.  Certainly we're in an extreme minority as drum corps fans, as you were when you watched Pittsburgh perform.  But is that lack of broad, mainstream appeal really a flaw with either drum corps or Pittsburgh?  I would claim that it is not, but rather that the two performances simply require an appreciation that many people lack.  Since you seem to have this appreciation, I would be careful about referring to it as "the snobbery of (your) own elitism".

If lack of mainstream appeal is not a flaw, then it would be hard to argue that having it is a benefit.  There is, of course, the commerical benefit; more people attending means more money, and so Coldplay will make far more money than drum corps.  But intrinsically, does broad mainstream appeal truly give a show more worth?  You seem to be trying to claim that it does, which would be bad news for us drum corps fans.  It would mean that we're wasting our time on an inferior product, and we need to be buying exclusively from the best sellers list, because that's clearly what more people want to hear.  If that doesn't sound reasonable to you, then maybe it's worth realizing that sometimes being in the minority isn't such a bad thing.

I'm constantly amazed at how drum corps fans - who have already chosen to be in the minority of the population - refuse to accept someone whose tastes place them in the minority yet again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lack of mainstream appeal is most certainly ''a flaw ", in my opinion. Obscure composers were obscure for a very good reason. They appealed to a distinct, small minority only. Nothing wrong with that. They just were unable to reach support from a broader audience, that's all. 'Having support from a broad audience that can appreciate a show from different levels, is what makes the show a " classic ". The inability to connect to an audience of divergent interests and only appeal to a small group is not a commendable endeavor, in my opinion. But the show that can soar, and connect at either an emotional or cerebral level, to a variety of tastes, abilities to discern, and experiences in the audience, etc is most certainly more preferable. But that's just my opinion here.

Edited July 15, 2005 by Lieut. General Effect

[Matt_S]

Lack of mainstream appeal is most certainly ''a flaw ", in my opinion...

The inability to connect to an audience of divergent interests and only appeal to a small group is not a commendable endeavor, in my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh, then God help our small-group activity known as drum corps. B)

[festive]

Heh, then God help our small-group activity known as drum corps.  B)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Drum corps is limited only by its occasional tendency to be self-serving.

You act like drum corps can only appeal to a small group of people. You are incorrect, IMO. Lots of people from different backgrounds like drum corps--it has broad appeal. A new fan should be able to walk up and enjoy the show, so shows should have broad appeal. Unless you want a very lonely, very exclusive activity.

I don't. B)

[ravedodger]

Heh, then God help our small-group activity known as drum corps.  B)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are all fans of an activity that had it's peak between the 50's and the 70's. We are now a niche market. Half the activity as a whole is looking out for the fans, the other half is exploring the creativity process. With the growth of DCA corps, I feel that we are managing to retain the average, loyal drum corps fan.

[chadwick]

Just pulled out some DVD's, watched some Cadets, some BD......then some Phantom 2003.

Thank you to everyone involved with that organization that year (and any other year for that matter).

WOW. what a show. I remember seeing it live in Utah, and that show honestly made my eyes well up with tears.

Beautiful....just beautiful.

I'm gonna go cry myself to sleep on my big huge pillow.

       

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Orignial post above.....and look where we are at now....we so often get off topic in these threads.

I love the 2003 Phantom show....some of you may think it didn't sound great, but thats your opinion. I frankly think it sounded wonderful, especially the hit in the beginning and the one at the end. The only weakness I find with this show is the guard...not that they were bad, but they had a lot of equipment drops.

I can't wait to see them this year....I didn't enjoy their show last year, so I am hoping it is similar to their 2003 show, which I loved.

[ravedodger]

I wouldn't say we are off topic at all really. We are merely exploring one aspect of the topic.

Edited July 15, 2005 by ravedodger

[ravedodger]

I can't wait to see them this year....I didn't enjoy their show last year, so I am hoping it is similar to their 2003 show, which I loved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2005 Phantom Regiment is one of those rare occurances where technical achievment meets entertainment.

I bet you'll truly love it. I did.

Edited July 15, 2005 by ravedodger

[PR ROCKS]

What you have with PR 2003 is an emotionally charged, high impact, beautifully designed musical program, which, unfortunately for the corps, was not performed perfectly at finals. The judges recognized the performance weaknesses and ranked them 4th, which is exactly what the judges are supposed to do. Perhaps the inconsistent yet emotional performances is what allowed the other horn lines that they beat at Indy to catch up with them. It is what it is...for some, me included, it will always be wonderful to listen to. It is not over-rated in the record books, but it will always be a favorite for many.