JerseyBoy_ Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) SOME QUESTIONS. Do we need Larger BRASS lines ? because of the switch to Bb , C and F horns , smaller bores. brass / drums ratio ? should the pit be smaller ? they are AMPED. why 10-12 still ?? If a corps AMPED pit is too loud should it count against the music ensemble score ? If a singer or speaker is not clear or out of tune should it count against the music score ? we need these to push the activity further but need restraints against those whom do it poorly. do we need field warm ups ? you warm up for a hour before every show. do we need to hear it or see it on the field ? do bigger corps need longer programs ? DIV I -12-15 minutes Div.II 10-12 DiV. III 8-10 DCA 10-12 do we need more local touring. west corps stay west , east stay east. midwest stay midwest , south stay south till last 2 weeks in July ? Do we need More emphasis on music in judging ? More emphasis on the performer and less on the designers ? a better understanding of EFFECT ? who is affected? the crowd ? the judge ? do we need a GE judge for both on weekends or should both be considerered ? your thoughts. Edited February 1, 2006 by thechezman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 SOME QUESTIONS.Do we need Larger BRASS lines ? because of the switch to Bb , C and F horns , smaller bores. brass / drums ratio ? I'm a brass guy. I love a large, loud brass line, so why not? should the pit be smaller ?they are AMPED. why 10-12 still ?? Great question. If amplification is supposed to make the pit audible using 'proper technique', why have so many keyboards? Well, the answer is...because the corps can. The amplification rules are not being used as they were promised. If it's used correctly, you can take members out of the pit to create those larger brass lines. I wish some corps would do just that. Another great move would be to put those plate lines back on the field. If a corps AMPED pit is too loud should it count against the music ensemble score ? Absolutely. If a pit is too loud, if affects the music ensemble sound, and therefore should affect the music ensemble score. If a singer or speaker is not clear or out of tune should it count against the music score ? Again, absolutely. Solists can (and should) have an effect on music score, so should volcaists. Same goes for an equipment malfuction. You screw something up, it better be reflected in the score musically (and possibly visually if you are running around trying to fix the technical problem). do we need field warm ups ?you warm up for a hour before every show. do we need to hear it or see it on the field ? I think that should be up to the individual corps. I for one prefer some kind of on-field warm up. If for no other reasons than to get your chops ready to go after walking to the gate, waiting to go on the field, and setting up. It can also get your ears warmed-up to your venue. Think of it as a sort of sound-check, just like a band on stage. do bigger corps need longer programs ? No. I think the 10-11:30 timeframe is fine. It's not too long and it's not too short. Size shouldn't be a factor in determining show length. do we need more local touring.west corps stay west , east stay east. midwest stay midwest , south stay south till last 2 weeks in July ? I like the idea, but it shouldn't be mandated, only encouraged. The same corps in front of the same crowds year after year can get stale. It's nice to have the occasional "long-distance guest corps" travel to your early-season show. Do we need More emphasis on music in judging ?More emphasis on the performer and less on the designers ? We need more emphasis on music effect, and less on design effect. That is to say, less hack-and-slash arranging, which seems to get rewarded over longer, more coherant melodies because it has a percieved higher level of difficulty. Judges should be trained to tell the difference. DCI music judges should reward corps that play a wide variety of musical styles within a show, yet still tie into the overall product. This has been better the last two or three years than it was prior to, say, 2000. a better understanding of EFFECT ?who is affected? the crowd ? the judge ? Well, aside from regional fan bias, drum corps should present shows that have an effect on the crowd. If a crowd sits on it's hands, that is a negative thing, and probably should impact score in some way. Converesly, a corps like Scouts with a large fan following should not benefit too much from thier built-in crowd following. It's a catch-22, but should be explored. do we need a GE judge for both on weekends or should both be considerered ? I'd rather see a GE judge than an execution judge if one has to take priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Bauglir Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) Do we need Larger BRASS lines ?because of the switch to Bb , C and F horns , smaller bores. brass / drums ratio ? No. I think the current size is pretty great. Hornlines sound plenty loud to me every time I see them. should the pit be smaller ?they are AMPED. why 10-12 still ?? Perhaps. I would of course like to see more cymbal lines. Sure you may be able to reproduce SOME of their effects in the pit, but you can also reproduce every other percussion voice in the pit as well. Using the same "reasoning" that is used against cymbals, why march at all? And amping the pit does free up a few more spots. I think the added visual flare of cymbals is more than worth seeing a slightly smaller row of marimbas up front that most fans probably don't look at during the show anyways. If a corps AMPED pit is too loud should it count against the music ensemble score ? Yes. Electronics or not. An ensemble that sounds bad should get a lower score. If a singer or speaker is not clear or out of tune should it count against the music score ? Absolutly. If singing is something we have to put up with, it needs to be held to the same standards as everything else. do we need field warm ups ?you warm up for a hour before every show. do we need to hear it or see it on the field ? I think it's still pretty neat. And hearing how the stadium sounds before you compete is always a good thing. And doing away with yet ANOTHER tradition would be beyond lame. I loved doing the onfield. Seeing BONES, hyping with the line. I wouldn't trade that for anything. Do we need more local touring.west corps stay west , east stay east. midwest stay midwest , south stay south till last 2 weeks in July ? Well I happen to like the possibility of seeing corps from different areas at local shows. The shows in my area, like the Glassmen show, are almost always very early in the season. I would hate to think that people around here waould always have to see the same groups all the time. Do we need More emphasis on music in judging ?More emphasis on the performer and less on the designers ? Well since a drum corp show is designed to be a combination of music and visual, it should be treated as such. I think too many people think that the designers should trying to cut a great sounding CD. That is not the case. A show is meant be be VIEWED as well as heard, outside, at a show. The CD is just an extra. So in regards to judging, I think an equal ephasis on both the music and the visual is absolutely necessary. If I want to hear only good music, I'll go to a symphony. Edited February 1, 2006 by G-Cym Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawker Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Wow, this is a lot to consider. Here goes... all of this IMO, of course: Do we need Larger BRASS lines ?because of the switch to Bb , C and F horns , smaller bores. brass / drums ratio ? I tend to think so. Looks like a a lot of groups are going with 66-70 horns already to increase the sound output. Seems like the darker sound the G's have might be easier to emulate with adding more euphs as well. I don't see that it's a problem to increase the horn line size to downplay some of the thinner sounds Bb can occasionally produce. should the pit be smaller ?they are AMPED. why 10-12 still ?? Good question. One of the reasons amps passed was to facilitate a smaller front ensemble, yet we haven't seen it happen. I think with amplification you probably really only need 8-9 up front at the maximum now. I wonder if we can't get some clarification with that. If a corps AMPED pit is too loud should it count against the music ensemble score ?If a singer or speaker is not clear or out of tune should it count against the music score ? Absoultely on both counts. With amplification legal, it has to be taken into account...although I don't think it is now. If we can judge brass and percussion on techinical merit and "cleanliness", then the same standard must apply to amplified vocals or incorrect pit balance. It's no different than an out of tune or too loud player in your horn line, and should be judged as such. we need these to push the activity further but need restraints against those whom do it poorly. You said a mouthful there. Problem is, people will ask who judges these things as "poorly". I know what I consider disingenious to the idiom, and what others might...but they are most likely at odds with each other. I think the only way you can objectively look at situations is from a finanical and educational standpoint. How much will this cost for amps/keyboards/woodwinds/insert change here? How will this affect the experience? I don't think that's been the case with the thought process recently though. Any key was a good move...resale, easier access, etc...but some of the recent decisions are not smart monetary moves for units that run oft times on shoestring budgets. do we need field warm ups ?you warm up for a hour before every show. do we need to hear it or see it on the field ? No real thought on this, other than the kids probably hype on on field warm ups. It wouldn't hurt to keep them off the field in order to move things along, but I think everyone here has gotten pumped upon hearing "F Tuning" played backfield at least once. do bigger corps need longer programs ?DIV I -12-15 minutes Div.II 10-12 DiV. III 8-10 DCA 10-12 Makes total sense to me. Used to have longer shows, anyway, right? With all that people are trying to jam into 11 minutes now, longer shows are probably better for the concept/storytelling mode drum corps has shifted to recently. do we need more local touring.west corps stay west , east stay east. midwest stay midwest , south stay south till last 2 weeks in July ? For sure. I think this would really keep the costs down, especially with diesel so expensive now. It's a chance to really grow the circuits locally, and develop the regions. Sad to say, but some may not want to attend a show with only II/III's at it in a certain region. Keeping the bigger programs at these shows will help to increase awareness of other units, and ultimately save everyones bottom line. Do we need More emphasis on music in judging ?More emphasis on the performer and less on the designers ? Ever since the Cavaliers GE revolution at the beginning of the decade, it seems that visual has slightly overtaken music on the sheets. I think that there needs to be a modification, or at least a clarification...of rewarding difficulty musically nowdays. Otherwise, ultra-demanding shows like 1998 Cadets...that throw the sink at you techincally, but aren't always "perfect"... may become a thing of the past. (note: this is not a dig at corps difficulty levels now, rather this concerns the type of show that is "en vogue" now in the juding community.) I think that above call fro refinement of the qualities the judges seek in the music captions will re-emphazise the performer, rather than the concept. While GE is certainly important, it's almost become the only barometer we use in determining a show's relative placement...which gives Gaines and co. more "credit" than Timmy the trumpet marching the show in the end. It's a tough line to walk...but I think it can be done. a better understanding of EFFECT ?who is affected? the crowd ? the judge do we need a GE judge for both on weekends or should both be considerered ? There are probably lots more well-versed people here than I on this, although I can say that even though we think the crowd should be a part of the effect score, that's not always the case. Is that something that should change? Possibly, but only slightly. Certainly nothing as ludicrous as an "audience" caption is needed, but again, like above with the music question, a slight tweaking of what the judging guidelines are, along with a slight overall shift in the scoring methodology ( I don't pretend to know the best way to do that) to reflect it. Doesn't have to be much, but bringing the risk/reward system more in line may make a good product even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Bauglir Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Well, aside from regional fan bias, drum corps should present shows that have an effect on the crowd. If a crowd sits on it's hands, that is a negative thing, and probably should impact score in some way. Converesly, a corps like Scouts with a large fan following should not benefit too much from thier built-in crowd following. It's a catch-22, but should be explored. Don't you think that it will only reward a certain type of show? I am positive there are more ways to appreciate art and performance by screaming loudly, clapping, and jumping up and down. Just because that is the most easily quantifiable, does not mean it is the only positive effect out there. And by choosing only to reward loud happy applause and ignoring show that are thought provoking, you are encouraging designers to write for the judges. The same thing corps are accused of doing now. I think we have a great and diverse selection of shows, from the happy and energetic shows of the Scouts and Cadets, to the sophisication and depth of the The Cavaliers and SCV. I do not think there should be mandates in place that reward corps for being the same. And that is what only rewarding clapping and such will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumCorpsFan27 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(thechezman @ Feb 1 2006, 07:59 AM) SOME QUESTIONS. Do we need Larger BRASS lines ? because of the switch to Bb , C and F horns , smaller bores. brass / drums ratio ? I'm a brass guy. I love a large, loud brass line, so why not? QUOTE should the pit be smaller ? they are AMPED. why 10-12 still ?? Great question. If amplification is supposed to make the pit audible using 'proper technique', why have so many keyboards? Well, the answer is...because the corps can. The amplification rules are not being used as they were promised. If it's used correctly, you can take members out of the pit to create those larger brass lines. I wish some corps would do just that. Another great move would be to put those plate lines back on the field. QUOTE If a corps AMPED pit is too loud should it count against the music ensemble score ? Absolutely. If a pit is too loud, if affects the music ensemble sound, and therefore should affect the music ensemble score. QUOTE If a singer or speaker is not clear or out of tune should it count against the music score ? Again, absolutely. Solists can (and should) have an effect on music score, so should volcaists. Same goes for an equipment malfuction. You screw something up, it better be reflected in the score musically (and possibly visually if you are running around trying to fix the technical problem). QUOTE do we need field warm ups ? you warm up for a hour before every show. do we need to hear it or see it on the field ? I think that should be up to the individual corps. I for one prefer some kind of on-field warm up. If for no other reasons than to get your chops ready to go after walking to the gate, waiting to go on the field, and setting up. It can also get your ears warmed-up to your venue. Think of it as a sort of sound-check, just like a band on stage. QUOTE do bigger corps need longer programs ? No. I think the 10-11:30 timeframe is fine. It's not too long and it's not too short. Size shouldn't be a factor in determining show length. QUOTE do we need more local touring. west corps stay west , east stay east. midwest stay midwest , south stay south till last 2 weeks in July ? I like the idea, but it shouldn't be mandated, only encouraged. The same corps in front of the same crowds year after year can get stale. It's nice to have the occasional "long-distance guest corps" travel to your early-season show. QUOTE Do we need More emphasis on music in judging ? More emphasis on the performer and less on the designers ? We need more emphasis on music effect, and less on design effect. That is to say, less hack-and-slash arranging, which seems to get rewarded over longer, more coherant melodies because it has a percieved higher level of difficulty. Judges should be trained to tell the difference. DCI music judges should reward corps that play a wide variety of musical styles within a show, yet still tie into the overall product. This has been better the last two or three years than it was prior to, say, 2000. QUOTE a better understanding of EFFECT ? who is affected? the crowd ? the judge ? Well, aside from regional fan bias, drum corps should present shows that have an effect on the crowd. If a crowd sits on it's hands, that is a negative thing, and probably should impact score in some way. Converesly, a corps like Scouts with a large fan following should not benefit too much from thier built-in crowd following. It's a catch-22, but should be explored. QUOTE do we need a GE judge for both on weekends or should both be considerered ? I'd rather see a GE judge than an execution judge if one has to take priority. I agree with these most of these answers. One difference is that I would like to see more regional touring during the first half of the season. This would allow D1 corps to perform at local D2/3 shows. I believe that will increase crowd sizes and revenue for the smaller corps that need it so badly. Edited February 1, 2006 by DrumCorpsFan27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumCorpsFan27 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) Don't you think that it will only reward a certain type of show? I am positive there are more ways to appreciate art and performance by screaming loudly, clapping, and jumping up and down. Just because that is the most easily quantifiable, does not mean it is the only positive effect out there. And by choosing only to reward loud happy applause and ignoring show that are thought provoking, you are encouraging designers to write for the judges. The same thing corps are accused of doing now. I think we have a great and diverse selection of shows, from the happy and energetic shows of the Scouts and Cadets, to the sophisication and depth of the The Cavaliers and SCV. I do not think there should be mandates in place that reward corps for being the same. And that is what only rewarding clapping and such will do. Then go to the Fine Arts museum or to the Chamber Orchestra. Drum corps is a stimulating activity in which the majority of paying fans want to driven to their feet screeming and applauding loudly. That is the idiom of drum and bugle corps. That doesn't mean that their can't be sophistication and levels built into a show, but these days it is more important to designers to be sophisticated than to be exciting. Edited February 1, 2006 by DrumCorpsFan27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Then go to the Fine Arts museum or to the Chamber Orchestra. Drum corps is a stimulating activity in which the majority of paying fans want to driven to their feet screeming and applauding loudly. That is the idiom of drum and bugle corps. That doesn't mean that their can't be sophistication and levels built into a show, but these days it is more important to designers to be sophisticated than to be exciting. I can not think of one single show that I saw in 2005 that fits your description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I agree with these most of these answers. One difference is that I would like to see more regional touring during the first half of the season. This would allow D1 corps to perform at local D2/3 shows. I believe that will increase crowd sizes and revenue for the smaller corps that need it so badly. What would it do to the payouts for the div I corps? Would they receive the same as they do now? What if the II/III show is not in a large venue? How can the sponsor of the show afford to have these div I corps appear? And..how about the sponsors of the div I shows that no longer have corps to perform? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 SOME QUESTIONS.Do we need Larger BRASS lines ? because of the switch to Bb , C and F horns , smaller bores. brass / drums ratio ? Aren't the bore sizes being increased now for the neweer Bb/F horns? Just curious...I am sure you know better than I on THAT one! should the pit be smaller ?they are AMPED. why 10-12 still ?? I think there are so many things that can be done with both mallets and other percussion in the pit that the 10-12 is still a good idea. Amps have provided a lot of opportunity to explore the 'smaller sounding' percussion instruments. If a corps AMPED pit is too loud should it count against the music ensemble score ?If a singer or speaker is not clear or out of tune should it count against the music score ? YES to both. we need these to push the activity further but need restraints against those whom do it poorly.do we need field warm ups ? you warm up for a hour before every show. do we need to hear it or see it on the field ? I'd leave that up to the corps..especially useful for sound checks, I'd think, as opposed to pure 'warmups'. do we need more local touring.west corps stay west , east stay east. midwest stay midwest , south stay south till last 2 weeks in July ? What would that do to the current show sponsors? Just curious... Do we need More emphasis on music in judging ?More emphasis on the performer and less on the designers ? a better understanding of EFFECT ? who is affected? the crowd ? the judge ? do we need a GE judge for both on weekends or should both be considerered ? IMO there is plenty of room for the performers on the sheets, at least as I understand them as an outsider. Whether the interpretation of the sheets follows their design is open to question, I guess. Good post...good questions... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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