Once upon a time, in a land far away (called Indiana)

[SaraNYC]

As long as it never gets deleted. There are certainly some great things on it. I think Boo's last post should be read over and over again by EVERYBODY. If it gets lost in the archive, eeeekkk. I don't know if THAT's worth it. Hmmm...Give me time to think about it.

Well, I'm still scratching my head about the

Jim could easily have lost all credibilty if things didn't work out.

comment. That's kind of funny. I seem to recall that he was pretty universally despised at the Alumni Gala. But I gotta give him credit for keeping things afloat after Bill Cook yanked his funding.

Karen will probably never forget me rushing up to her table to tell her that Mason had just come up to my table and smoozed me - really was KissingMA because he heard I do the occasional gig in NYC. But then he ignored my momma and you just don't do that when I introduce her to you.

It's true about Star though being hated until they were gone, and Michael, I do agree with your point about nobody else picking up the ball on corporate sponsorship. Unfortunate - I do remember the Cadet being sponsored by K-Mart at some time.

And Bawker, that beat a deads horse icon. PRICELESS!!!!! Love. It.

[Jeff Ream]

WOW! When I think about what you just said, my mind wanders into the thought realms of "I wonder if DCAs verbiage change to "all age" is in part an effort to create a security blanket for drum corps in the event of the possibility that the unthinkable last straw rule change really DOES kill the activity". That thought may be a long shot from what DCAs real motivations are behind the change but I can't help but wonder it anyway.

it is a huge long shot. the change came about because DCA was no longer just old ####s getting drunk. many DCA corps have members under 21, as young as 13

[Jeff Ream]

Don't exaggerate Jeff, he wants 180.

sorry i was off by 5...i couldnt remember the exact number.

[Jeff Ream]

Adding fans and changing fans are two different concepts. I'm all for addding fans and DCI has been doing that at a slow but steady rate for the past three years or so. However, that is only a fraction of what dropped off in earlier years. DCI needs to find a way to add new while keeping the old.

and therein lies the problem...the old, aka the legacy fan, is not what they want. in fact, at times, i'd say they';d be thrilled if they were all gone, then no complaints :P

[Jeff Ream]

I think I agree with most if not all of the initial post.

If 1 person out of 20ish wants to do something different, he should go do things differently. Not change the other 20 to be like him. I believe that MikeD said around page 6 that he would be for adding a marching band division to DCI. I would be alright with that too, as long as they competed completely seperate from actual drum corps. Simply allowing corps to use WWs would not cut it. Direct competition using differnt instrument sets would not only be a logistical and judging disaster, it simply would not be fair. Example: Let's say we are all fans of sail-boat racing. Different teams use different types of material for their sails, hull, ect. But it is all sail-boats. Now would it be ok to say that if a team wants, it can compete using a rocket-engine powered boat? Of course not. The same goes for drum corps. Now I am not saying that adding WWs is the equivilent of adding a rocket engine to a boat. Only that for real competition to take place, you need to start somewhere in the same ballpark. And Brass/WW groups competeing against Brass only groups would not be fair. In addition, I expect groups that do not use A&E to reside at the bottom of whatever division they are in. Look for that in a few years.

As for the activity as a whole....

It is OK to not be all inclusive. It's alright to not please everyone. It is not a bad thing if you are unique. I get the feeling that some people, and directors, lose sight of that. This drive to include everyone and to change the activity so it is more popular loses sight of what we already have.

Pop and Hip Hop are the most popular forms of music today. Does that mean all other musicians should stop whatever they are doing and play pop or hip hop in order to please only the majority? That would be absurd.

Uniqueness is good. Drum corps is unique.

My number 1 all time reason against adding WWs(effectivly making drum corps into marching band) is that WE ALREADY HAVE MARCHING BAND. I, and many others, LIKE having 2 seperate circuits for 2 seperate activities. I would even add a third, WGI into the mix. It is good that they are different. I certainly do not want to watch, be in, or teach the same thing all year long. I like having brass and percussion in the summer, marching band in the fall and just percussion in the winter. Dilluting them all into 1 activity makes each one less than it is. The result would be less than the sum of it's parts.

The whole argument about adding WWs only being the next stop towards MB? I don't see it that way. I see drum corps as drum corps as long as it is unique. So what that they added valves. Was there another activity out there that had brass with valves and that by adding them in drum corps, it became that other activity? NO. It was still unique. And it has been for every other change that has occured. As long as it is not the same as something else, that is fine in my book. But adding WWs would be the last step. Drum Corps would no longer be different. It would be exactly the same as marching band. And that would be bad.

Not to mention, I simply like the sound of just brass and percussion more than brass/ww/percussion. Plain and simple. And I think others agree. Why can we not have that?

In the world of skating is speed skating, figure skating, and hockey. And even among those, there are seperate divions about distance, age, how many people are on the team, ect. None of them compete against each other. That is crucial to each one keeping it's identity and competitive purity and fairness. And it should be that way in the marching arts as well. Let's keep the different activities seperate.

If someone wants something different, go off and do something different. Let us keep what we want.

[Jeff Ream]

In drum corps at least, using the "options" adds to your score. Not using them is like competing with one arm tied behind your back.

thanks JF :P

[Jeff Ream]

As far as "new audiences" go, does anyone really think that there's any band kids that don't watch drum corps because there aren't woodwinds? I think all of them respect it for being something different, as opposed to being bitter at it for being exclusive.

(I agree that the furthering of "development" of drum corps in regards to woodwinds being added, should involve the usage of another parent organization to foster these ideas.)

oh many right here on DCP have said the big appeal was that it IS different from band.

[Jeff Ream]

That's were the fan base comes from, and that's where Dan Acheson and others feel like the growth comes from.

Objectively, "legacy fans" are a finite resource. They grow up, get burnt out on drum corps, and leave it for a few years sometimes.

Going after the high school marcher at these high level programs is a never-ending stream of kids to indoctrinate into DCI. They have the kids...the parents (plus their money on tour and supporting the corps) and so forth as a ready made resource.

In that regard, it makes business sense...and I don't fault them in trying to keep DCI's head above water.

However, in the arena of keeping drum corps as a totally unique part of the marching arts...possibly not so much in the long run. It's difficult to infer where exactly the older fan...the long time supporter for 10 or 20 years... belongs now

There does need to be a modicum of balance with attempting to keep the "legacy fan" and draw in this new breed...things like the Classic Countdown and Legacy DVD's help, but only as DCI exists as a "commodity" for you to buy.

I think there needs to be some work on creating a dialogue and more inclusive atmosphere for those "legacy" folks as well...everyone needs to be able to come to the table and enjoy the art form.

How to do that? I'm not so sure. Any ideas? :)

that is indeed a good question. no offense to the newer fans, but will they have the staying power of legacy fans? these are the fans that bought LP,s then bought em all on tape, then bought em all on cd. they replaced all of their videos with dvd. these are the folks that went to multiple shows a year, every year...even to #### holes like orlando, jackson and Dallas( i love Dallas, but not in mid august on astroturf)

these are the west coast die hards that still went despite 26 years between finals within a days drive. they kept coming despite ticket prices rising. These are the folks who were there when only 11000 people showed up at finals.

Until these kids can prove they have this staying power, this IS an audience DCI can't do without, yet more and more, it seems this IS the audience getting more and more fed up.

[Jeff Ream]

This is all very fascinating fiction conversation, but I might suggest to anyone who is leery of seeing woodwinds on the DCI field of competition anytime soon...

(pssst) George isn't the guy you should be spending your energy on.

:)

we know who proposed woodwinds at I&E. however he isnt the one who talks about it day in and day out

[Jeff Ream]

It's all pretty simple actually. Amplification was never a one man show. That was something that was coming sooner or later. It had more than enough support in the instructors caucuses to get through each year and many influential people behind it. It was simply a matter of time. Along those lines, the next big change to hit DCI will most likely be electronics, and NOT woodwinds. And even that will take a number of years.

Woodwinds doesn't have, and really never has had, that groundswell of support underneath it in DCI. Not with the directors who don't (and can't) spend the hundreds of thousands of dollars to add buses, fuel, insurance, equipment, uniforms, etc etc etc to their budgets each year. Not with the instructors who don't feel like finding replacement reeds in the middle of Texas in mid-July on a 9 hour rehearsal day before a big regional.

So it only makes sense to me that instead of focusing all my time and energy on silencing one man, I'd rather spend that time strengthening the support base of those who can keep his voice a lonely one on this issue. Namely the other corps direcrtors and instructors who have the means to affect change in Drum Corps International.

Just a suggestion. Take it or leave it. :)

been there, done that, ignored.