Where does colorguard go from here, your opinions

[deftguy]

a couple things to touch upon. as a musician.. you need to emote through the music.. if you do not play with feeling, or dynamics, the music is bland and boring. so even though you can not see the emoting of the hornline, it is still done.

How do you know one is emoting if there is no evidence of it? If you are angry, isn't there some outward display facially that shows it?

As a keyboardist (piano, organ, synth) I play will much feeling. Gospel and Jazz are impossible to play without it. I have no facial expressions at all when I play, I may just move, or let my heart sing while I play. You are attempting for the second time to equate a feeling with a face colorguard style, and it does not necessarily apply to musicians at all. I can see where a facial expression might just mess with the correct formation of the lips on the mouthpiece. Its crazy to think like a colorguard member while evaluating emotions in the drum or horn section.

performance of the pit. same thing. how they strike the keys depends on the sound it makes. if you watch a good pit. or any keyboard player, they do not stand there motionless or emotionless.

Lionel Hampton is argueably one of the best keyboard/Marimba player there was. I made a point to catch him as a kid everytime he came to NYC. I never saw a single facial expression on him unless it was done in the name of showmanship. In his rehersals he played with such feeling and intensity, but not a single smile, sad face, or any other facial expression. Once again you are imparting colorguard sensibilities to the pit area. Do you listen to the pit, or do you watch their faces? Which is more important?

performance in color guard seems to been seen as a comfortablilty factor. if you can perform and smile (or whatever emotion) and spin, and look comfortable while you do, it makes it look like you are better than a guard who does not show the comfortablilty to emote while spinning.

Is this so? Don't think so. When you mention to anyone who has been around colorguard more than 10 minutes who one of the best colorguard in history are, the 27th Lancers always comes up. Why? Because they made everything they do look easy and comfortable, and they did harder things than most guards of the period. Oh, and they made no faces whatsoever. When you speak of the best guard tricks and exchanges, then the Cavaliers usually come up, and guess what? No smiles. A smile does not equate to equipment competency. That is more colorguard babble. How you handle your body and the equipment is what equals competency, smile or not. If I could reach back to a guard that engendered more of the characteristic of today way back in the old school, it would be the great Seattle Imperials winter guard. They could outdance, and outhandle ANY guard on the field and floor today, and are probably the only old school guard the could compete today, and be competitive. Dead pan face, and no smiles. You really have to be careful how you relate one thing to another, because there really is no relationship between how the body moves, and how the face is used. That is a scientific reality.

replying to the statement earlier about renegades. "there was very little dancing from the guard. or body under work"... but look how the judges viewed it. i'm not saying it's right or wrong. good or bad, but look at the placement the judges created. lack of body (no triad)= easy/easier. this is how it is judged today or viewed by the judges. look at the higher ranked groups of dca. there is more body under equipment. for example, caballeros 2003 used the triad very frequently, and did it well.

got to go back to work.. so i will have to continue another time..

Never said we didn't have body over work. That is mainly what we did have. No dancing from most of the guard however. A judge decides how well a guard does in a show, and makes comments that might enhance, clarify, or help clean a show. It is imparative that a judge see your show more than once to make the best comments, and show to show comparisons. All of the guards that beat us where seen by a DCA judge a minimum of 3 times or more. We were judged once. The advantage of receiving a judges comments to enhance. clean and correct cannot be underscored. If they see you only once, then all of the other colorguards have an advantage over the you. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. We were evaluted by DCA judges only twice that year. In prelims, and in finals. This put our guard, and corps at a GREAT disadvantage when compared to the other corps and guards that beat us. So you see, it is overly simplistic to say that we didn't place well just because we didn't dance. Not many of the other guards did either. When it comes to guards DCA isn't all DCI, and the judging isn't the same either.

Edited April 24, 2006 by deftguy

[jojo]

wall sized video projections,moniters and film.atmospheric lighting effects might also be utilized

Now, to me, THAT sounds like an evolutionary step. We did something with "scrims" at DCI's opening ceremonies in 2002 that I thought was pretty cool. With few exceptions, most of what else has been proposed in this thread though, I feel has, or is, being done to some degree already.

I'm a big fan of precision/uniformity and clean is ALWAYS good. It's breathtaking when every member does something truly difficult exactly the same way at exactly the same time, in tempo and in keeping with the mood of the music. Those are the ten seconds you sit through a whole day of colorguard to see. I'd like to see that not be unique to a few guards. But "clean" and "technique" aren't evolutionary ideas, they should be the standard.

and I still don't think we should limit what we do (or what we explore) to what the audience can "see" -- and, I don't think moving backwards or re-incorporating aspects we've lost over time is evolutionary ^0^

Edited April 24, 2006 by jojo

[deftguy]

where does color guard go from here?

as for indoor winter guards the future might just find designers using wall sized video projections,moniters and film.atmospheric lighting effects might also be utilized.

in order to maximize and heighten our suspension of disbeleif a huge theater curtain on the front sideline will hide the entire stage until the beginning of each guards show when it is raised and then lowered at the end of each guards program.

adjudicating will be completely annonymous and entirely computerized.judges will be able to veiw an instant replay and look specifically at sections of a guards program before giving their final score.

This would probably work pretty well in WGI, but wouldn't all of these visual distractions take away from the performance of the individual? It is known science that the eye will gravitate to movement and large objects. So wouldn't all of this "visual jewelry" pull the eyes toward it, and away from the guard itself?

Can all of this be setup in a timely fashion? What about power failures or malfunctions. Wouldn't it be dangerous to have a show designed around this stuff, and during a malfunction it would change a show to a very high degree, or tear it apart altogether.

We have already moved away from equipment as the focal point of guard and moved more towards a dance program. Do we want to move away from both of those and go into multimedia presentations? Would you call it colorguard even though this concept has gone way beyond anything affiliated with guard? There is such thing as evolving OUT of a specific recognizeable activity. It seems to me if folks are willing to go this far, then the activity should be changed completely. Maybe (at least for WGI) we should ditch the rifles, sabres and flags for props, elaborate costumes, backdrops and sets, and call it performance art or dance.

I think you either stick with what is currently done and risk boring your audience with sameness, let the activity evolve and risk further alienation of some fans, or combine the old with the new and possibly attract fans that have long lost interest. To evolve you really are going to have to ditch the "traditional" equipment for another set or there can be no real evolvement based on the criteria others have set in previous posts.

[rifleboypa]

deftguy, i don't think that you understand what i was saying.

part of being in the pit is performing how you strike they keys, not just in your facial expressions.

in a way i agree with you that there can be too much dancing in a show. dancing for the sake of dancing. i was always taught with more of a focus on the equipment. so dancing is one of my weaker spots.

now, if you do not use the triad in color guard, you do not get credit. plain and simple. that's what they are looking for. a guard who adds body under their equipment, and does it well, is going to do better than a guard that just stands there or just marches and spins. the criteria is set be the judges.

i do agree with the use of the triad. the first couple years i marched in dca, we didn't do much with it at all. as time went on, it was incorporated more into the shows, and there was a total difference in the outcome and look of the show. how "drum corps" moments were created and enhanced by the use of body.

this past summer, there was not a set with out body underneath the equipment, and if they were standing still, it was rare that there was not a count of work without body. it paid off.

now i'm sure you are going to have some sort of reasoning for this.. i'm just stating personal experience here. and personal experience. i know standing near the judges area dca weekend watching the color guard, i could see facial expression, as well as body. where color guard goes from here, i do not know. watch, experiment and find out.

[deftguy]

deftguy, i don't think that you understand what i was saying.

part of being in the pit is performing how you strike they keys, not just in your facial expressions.

To call what pit players do as any form of emoting is not really accurate. They use expressive technique in their hand movements, but that doesn't convey any emotion, it just represent technique. To try and tie that to how colorguards use emoting as a expression might be a little misleading, as there aren't specialized strokes in the pit to convery anger, sadness, or happiness. It's all technique, but anyone can interpret it to be whatever they want by using cues fom the music, and the guard book.

in a way i agree with you that there can be too much dancing in a show. dancing for the sake of dancing. i was always taught with more of a focus on the equipment. so dancing is one of my weaker spots.

We are definately in the same position. Dancing is not my forte' either. However, part of my problem with todays guards is there is too much dancing just for the sake of dancing, and I have been turned off by it. It seems like we are dragging more and more stuff on the field in the name of being creative, but it someitmes ends up being alot of clutter, and non contextural dance numbers in small ensembles. Hard to follow, even harder to get visually clean to the eyes.

now, if you do not use the triad in color guard, you do not get credit. plain and simple. that's what they are looking for. a guard who adds body under their equipment, and does it well, is going to do better than a guard that just stands there or just marches and spins. the criteria is set be the judges.

I marched in the eighties, so when someone mentions such an extreme as just stand there and march just to make a point, that is like reaching in the garbage to make dinner. No one has ever mentioned just standing around and spinning, or any variation thereof.

One of the other main problems I have is judges having a preset requirement like using the "triad" as a basis for judgement. What ever happen to them just judging what they see, and offering suggestion on staging and clean up? Why are judges setting out a specific criteria rather than just judging performance value? Judging on the "triad" creates shows that fundimentally look the same from guard to guard (and they do if you look objectively), with the only distinguishing factor being the costume, and the music. Remember, we are dealing with non professionals with only so much training, so aside from the use of set, backdrops, props, different costumes, unique equipment, that can often distinguish one colorguard from another, strip it all away and everyone looks exactly alike. This creates a creative stagnation from a long time viewers perspective.

i do agree with the use of the triad. the first couple years i marched in dca, we didn't do much with it at all. as time went on, it was incorporated more into the shows, and there was a total difference in the outcome and look of the show. how "drum corps" moments were created and enhanced by the use of body.

I think it takes more than the body to create a drum corps moment, it takes a whole corps to do that. While I do not have a problem with the idea of the triad, I do have a problem with that being the only way that people judge a good colorguard. Rather than add more colorguard jewelry, why don't we explore a little mind expansion of what can be done on the field. If you have only the triad as a basis, then you have no variety. Since no one has REALLY explored the melding of the old and new, how do we know that it won't look as fresh to people as dancing does to some. After watching alot of dancing on the field for the last twenty or so years, I find that either they go another direction, or change what guards is altogether with. I find myself bored with what I have been seeing, and this is the first time I have ever felt that way.

this past summer, there was not a set with out body underneath the equipment, and if they were standing still, it was rare that there was not a count of work without body. it paid off.

now i'm sure you are going to have some sort of reasoning for this.. i'm just stating personal experience here. and personal experience. i know standing near the judges area dca weekend watching the color guard, i could see facial expression, as well as body. where color guard goes from here, i do not know. watch, experiment and find out.

When you are playing to the judges instead of trying to entertain, sure the triad pays off. But I also hear alot of folks that are like myself who are really bored with what they are seeing on the field. Too many colorguards are playing to the judges, and leaving alot of us scratching our heads trying to figure out what the heck they are doing.

If you look for something, you will find it. Anyone looking at the whole package as a whole, will not notice a smile, grin, or grimace. Colorguard watchers will see different things than horn watchers, or drum watchers. I look at the whole package, and the last thing I see is a smile or any kind of emoting at all. I stop being a colorguard watcher about five years ago, when it got just to artsy fartsy for me to understand the context of what they were doing. This speaking of DCI colorguards only, DCA is a different ballgame altogether with.

[jojo]

for consideration ...

judges don't determine the criteria nor are they to bend it to their whim -- the criteria is set by the "community" -- mostly the folks who choose to be leaders in the activity -- whether that's DCI, DCA or a a local parade circuit, whatever -- the judges analyze what's put before them and how it fits the criteria on the sheets in front of them -- whoever's sheets those are

the importance of the triad, the use of amps and vocals, etc, etc, etc are the inventions of the community as a whole

I think that's an important distinction

[Stick Stack]

To call what pit players do as any form of emoting is not really accurate. They use expressive technique in their hand movements, but that doesn't convey any emotion, it just represent technique. To try and tie that to how colorguards use emoting as a expression might be a little misleading, as there aren't specialized strokes in the pit to convery anger, sadness, or happiness. It's all technique, but anyone can interpret it to be whatever they want by using cues fom the music, and the guard book.

For what it's worth, about the whole pit performance and colorguard performance as a comparison...

I do know that some pits are often told to perform facially. At least, that's what it seems from the videos... ever see Santa Clara Vangaurd 2003 I believe? Those guys in the pits are totally performing with their face. Also, I've seen it alot from Boston Crusaders.

The whole comparison to the pit's emoting through technique is the equivalent of a guard's musicality and expression through their skill and equipment. In other words, everything but their face.

On another note, I've been watching other genres of theatre and dancing and such. There is a wide range of what is accepted as regards to facial expression- from completely over the top to nothing at all.

Where does the activity go from now? How does it evolve? It seems that whomever wants to "push the envelope" in their own direction WOULD have to be on the board of directors or whomever influences the judge's sheets. That does have a big impact on what is acceptable and rewarded to perform.

[ChicagoFan]

Sally...I won't quote your entire reply to STICK on the previous page but, suffice it to say, I agree with you 100%.

[deftguy]

for consideration ...

judges don't determine the criteria nor are they to bend it to their whim -- the criteria is set by the "community" -- mostly the folks who choose to be leaders in the activity -- whether that's DCI, DCA or a a local parade circuit, whatever -- the judges analyze what's put before them and how it fits the criteria on the sheets in front of them -- whoever's sheets those are

the importance of the triad, the use of amps and vocals, etc, etc, etc are the inventions of the community as a whole

I think that's an important distinction

Your point is well taken.