why making Finals is so important

[asifindnoarta]

Does it occur to you, then, that a lot of it has to do with not only different designers for different corps (something the members can do NOTHING about), but also the relative talent levels? Not everyone that marches is Cadets 2005 calibur you know. Yeah, there are several people in every corps that could probably be in a better corps based on their talent...but thats just not the case across the board.

You do the best that you can with what you have to work with. Not only from a talent perspective, but a design perspective as well.

I agree with you that the quality of the show produced falls primarily in the hands of the show designer. I also agree that the members themselves have no influence with respect to the design of the show. My complaint lies not in the lack of talent of the members but with the short comings of show designers. I believe that with better show designs and quality of instruction, corps with talent levels equivalent to that of a 12th place corps could create shows of quality equivalent to that of a first place corps.

[Matt_S]

As history has taught us, there is much more at stake for the Drum Corps community at large with these 6-8 Corps vying for one of these important 11th and 12th positions. Your thoughts on this ?

I feel like someone hinted at it earlier, but I can't find that post. Essentially, what you've given is what seems to be a fairly significant correlation. I'm not so sure that the causal chains run in the direction you've implied, though. Does missing finals cause a corps to fold? Or rather, would you say that there are a number of factors that contribute to a corps folding, and many of those factors can also happen to make it exceedingly difficult for a corps to earn a spot in finals. I guess it's a chicken or the egg, which happened first: instability or missing finals?

I feel pretty confident that if Crossmen or Colts or Spirit miss finals this year that it won't lead to that corps folding. Those corps seem to have themselves a pretty solid foundation, and each corps is most definitely of finalist caliber. In this year, missing finals is a sign that more than just twelve corps are worthy of the honor. While I do expect the battle to be highly entertaining, I don't know that performing on Saturday night will necessarily be critical to the corps' long term survival. I'm hopefully for a day where the battle for semis is just as competitive.

[mistertoo]

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Edited July 14, 2006 by mistertoo

[bawker]

Watching mediocre groups battle it out for a finals spot doesn't seem captivating to me.

Sadly, a lot of people in the stands seem to think this as well lately...that it's okay to get there late, make noise during smaller corps, and just generally not care until the "big boys" play, and even then, to act as ostentatious as possible during said performances.

That type of attitude...if it becomes prevalent... will leave us with just the "super groups" soon.

[asifindnoarta]

So last year's 12th place corps, with quality instruction could perform last year's 1st place show, just as well as last year's 1st place corps did? I suggest you stop digging. That hole you're in? It will soon be too deep to climb out of, IMHO.

Yes, it's not unreasonable to expect the members of last year's 12th place corps to have the capability to perform last year's 1st place show just as well as last year's 1st place corps given that they are provided with the necessary instruction and necessary time.

[dc oldtimer]

Interesting subject. I found myself thinking hard about my feelings on this one.

Personally, (me, myself, I) wouldn't want to join a corps who's goal wasn't to make finals. I spent an entire year (1978) knowing we would have a pull it out of our *** to get into finals or pay someone off (KIDDING!!!! on the paying off part). It was the worst year that I marched because I am competative and performing in front of 35,000 people at the World Championships is where is at! We didn't make finals in 78 and given The Cavaliers long proud history we were determined to make it back in 79 which we did. We were VERY proud of the fact that we did and I can't discribe our feelings once the scores were announced.

It's all personal preference. If joining someone like the Colts who's goal is not to make finals every year makes you happy and you get something out of it then go for it. But again for me, that's not for me.

[X DM]

I feel like someone hinted at it earlier, but I can't find that post. Essentially, what you've given is what seems to be a fairly significant correlation. I'm not so sure that the causal chains run in the direction you've implied, though. Does missing finals cause a corps to fold? Or rather, would you say that there are a number of factors that contribute to a corps folding, and many of those factors can also happen to make it exceedingly difficult for a corps to earn a spot in finals. I guess it's a chicken or the egg, which happened first: instability or missing finals?

I feel pretty confident that if Crossmen or Colts or Spirit miss finals this year that it won't lead to that corps folding. Those corps seem to have themselves a pretty solid foundation, and each corps is most definitely of finalist caliber. In this year, missing finals is a sign that more than just twelve corps are worthy of the honor. While I do expect the battle to be highly entertaining, I don't know that performing on Saturday night will necessarily be critical to the corps' long term survival. I'm hopefully for a day where the battle for semis is just as competitive.

I think it's a number of factors that cause Corps to fold. National touring finances of Corps who probably shouldn't be doing national touring probably is a major contributing factor in my opinion. I really don't think not making Top 12 for a couple of years will be a contributing reason in of itself. But I do think that multiple years of sitting just outside Top 12 will do it. The Corps like Colts, Crossmen, Spirit have some history of making top 12, so that gives them a little more wiggle room from looking at extinction. But if a Corps sits outside of Div 1 Top 12 for more than 3 or 4 years, history tells us, that Corps is probably going to have a hard time staying afloat for much longer beyond those few years. It's a sad reality. But that's why it's important for Corps to secure one of those Finals spots, in my view. And that's why I find the competition for those 11th and 12th place positions so intriguing. We talk on here sometimes about the " evolution " of Drum Corps over the years. Here we have a perfect example of one of Charles Darwin's Principles of Evolution in practice, ie... " Only the Strong Survive "

Edited July 6, 2006 by X DM

[dciguy01]

I read the title of this thread and chuckled. I don't see why a corps should place so much emphasis on making Finals. I really don't. As if making the top 12 is the cutoff between good and bad . Sure I marched 3 years in which I never made Finals, but I never lost any sleep over it. 12 is an arbitrary number anyway. The only reason it is top 12 and not 6, 8, 10, or any other number is because one day a bunch of people (12) decided that 12 corps should make finals.

[Liam]

Yes, it's not unreasonable to expect the members of last year's 12th place corps to have the capability to perform last year's 1st place show just as well as last year's 1st place corps given that they are provided with the necessary instruction and necessary time.

Well, if this is the case, then why do corps even bother to have auditions? If all the kids are the same and all it requires is proper show design and instruction to make a 1st place finish, then let's just take the first 135 kids that come in the door and save all that time and energy wasted on auditions.

Hate to be so blunt, but there are differences in talent level that matters. Some kids are simply more talented and have more potential than others. All work just as hard. And certainly show design and instruction matter as well. The best combination of talent, show design, and instruction will likely place higher than corps with less in any one (or all three) categories. Doesn't mean that they all don't work extremely hard, that they can't put on an entertaining and technically impressive show, and that competition can't be fierce at all levels. But to think that you can simply replace marchers between corps and produce the same level of quality is suspect thinking, at best. IMO.

Edit -- Also, as was mentioned before, there are certainly individual members of each and every corps that could change places with a top tier corps and be fine. But, overall, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that those who passed auditions for say the Cavies or Cadets or BD are on average at a higher talent level than those who don't. Hope no one is offended by this -- all kids at all levels work just as hard and put on extremely entertaining shows to my eye.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Liam

[X DM]

I read the title of this thread and chuckled. I don't see why a corps should place so much emphasis on making Finals. I really don't. As if making the top 12 is the cutoff between good and bad . Sure I marched 3 years in which I never made Finals, but I never lost any sleep over it. 12 is an arbitrary number anyway. The only reason it is top 12 and not 6, 8, 10, or any other number is because one day a bunch of people (12) decided that 12 corps should make finals.

I hear you. But there are financial awards and other DCI perks that Corps in the Top 12 receive that those below 12th don't receive. It may not seem like much to some Corps marching members like yourself, but it means a lot to Corps Management looking at end of season bottom line financials, And not finishing in the Top 12 has a direct bearing on that Corps ability to recruit sufficient national talent for the following year to improve, and also to command leverage with show sponsors around the country for the following year, and a whole host of other postives that come with making one of those Finalist spots.

Edited July 6, 2006 by X DM