the 2006 Madison Scout new ending .. YAWN part II

[Matt_S]

3 out of the 5 years I marched we played something from earlier Scout shows.

Ah, but even those pieces had to be played for the first time, they had to be new before they could become classics.

[glory]

I didn't mean a corps needs to rehash it's past to death, but if a member joins a corps because of the types of programs he/she has enjoyed over the years, shouldn't that be the "stlye" of program they get to perform?

Again, no. They're not obliged this year to continue anything from the past any more than you were obliged to wear official Boy Scout uniforms when you marched. You didn't uphold the style of all the Madison corps before you. Why should this generation be limited to yours?

HH

[madscout96]

The answer to that is similar to the question you posed above. No. The staff is obliged to provide today's Scouts with precisely what you received. But that has nothing to do with the composition of this year's or any year's show. The staff owes the kids a summer of achievement, progress, friendship and memories. The notes, the drill and the alums are necessary, but ultimately, incidental.

HH

Well, yes, the guys wearing the uniforms now are most important. But I wouldn't at all say that all the other stuff, like the corps' history and legacy and alums are incidental. The guys hopefully/probably gain an understanding of the corps' history, watch video of shows from the past, hear stories from alum that are on staff, or that aren't. And they'll realize that they are the next generation of Scouts and they have a RESPONSIBILITY to carry the torch, keep it burning, take it where it's never gone before, and then hand it off to the generation that follows them.

That is not exactly what I meant, but 3 out of the 5 years I marched we played something from earlier Scout shows.

What I meant was that some corps are know for certain styles. Be it the type of music played or style of drill performed, corps have something about their identity which makes them special. If Phantom Regiment were to play a jazz program, would their fans be happy? Would their members?

I didn't mean a corps needs to rehash it's past to death, but if a member joins a corps because of the types of programs he/she has enjoyed over the years, shouldn't that be the "stlye" of program they get to perform?

Scouts don't necessarily have to be playing jazz for them to be in the Scouts' style. Look at 1995, the first half of that show was pretty much classical. And 1997 all English folk-ish symphonic pirate stuff. Both shows absolutely lit the turf on fire.

But as far as repertoire is concerned, I do think that every few years or so it's not bad to "rehash" an old tune, bring it back, maybe do something different with it. Kinda like Scouts did with Malaga in 2004, or Bluecoats with Caravan last year, or Phantom Regiment and Mahler this year. Or just bring back a "lick" or two. Like Scouts were doing at the end of their show this year (until they changed it, assuming they took out the drum ending that they used at the end of 2001). Do stuff like that, and it might serve as something to connect the current members to the members of the past.

[xmenjeffb]

The staff owe the members nothing, but the staff owes the Board of Directors a winning corps. The members can take it or leave it.

A winning corps will allow the organization to continue, making it more attractive for recruitment and raising.

If the members don't like the program, I'm sure there are hundreds more ready to audition for that spot.

Enquiring minds have to know :

Did you ever march drum corps??

Did you only march in a corps that won ??

??

I would guess not.

To have shared just a touch of the Madison Brotherhood in 1981 in Montreal as we stayed in the same housing . Too see them do what they do While we in Crossmen did what we do. And while neither of us won . I am very sure none of us would have traded our experinces with our corps !!!

I am Bones till the day i die. Some years i love us some years i dont But i am always bones.. Did I cry foul in 1985 when they came out looking like Hostess CUPCAKES ?? !! no I SCREAMED !!!!!!!

Yes the staff owes the members who PAY to go on tour and work the hours we ask them to work ! We owe them the very best we can provide in a summer experince . An experince which we hope will stay with them a life time as it has many here !! We owe them an ear or a shoulder when " real life " from home injects itself into the " fantasy "world of tour . We owe them our best effort as we expect it from them everyday !!

I am stopping here as I feel a rage building .

As to the orginal post..

Scream on , because i bet you still support them . Would i choose this forum to express as you have . Probably not but it is your choice not mine.

Sal is a great man . A hard working and caring person. If you feel as strongly as you do at the end of the season send him a note. Express your thoughts . But i encourage you to be open to hear his side . Chuck made a great post here IMHO and that may be the root of the issue. It is a challenge to many corps that have had the years of quality that some have shared.

We know who we are . But where do we take us from here ?? It is never as easy as some may imagine.

My .04 cents

Jeff

[prodigital]

The staff owe the members nothing, but the staff owes the Board of Directors a winning corps. The members can take it or leave it.

A winning corps will allow the organization to continue, making it more attractive for recruitment and raising.

If the members don't like the program, I'm sure there are hundreds more ready to audition for that spot.

I guess what you say is true, these days it is all about winning to stay alive.

Its too bad that Drum Corps has become an elitist activity, but like you said "I'm sure there are hundreds more ready to audition for that spot."

I guess what you are really saying is that the members truly aren't important, they are replaceable.

If winning is the end-all be-all, why have a corps? Why do it if it is not for the kids, but to win? What is the point?

That is why drum corps is on the decline. The kids are second to the board of directors.

[regularsopguy]

Enquiring minds have to know :

Did you ever march drum corps??

Did you only march in a corps that won ??

??

I would guess not.

Yes the staff owes the members who PAY to go on tour and work the hours we ask them to work ! We owe them the very best we can provide in a summer experince . An experince which we hope will stay with them a life time as it has many here !! We owe them an ear or a shoulder when " real life " from home injects itself into the " fantasy "world of tour . We owe them our best effort as we expect it from them everyday !!

I am stopping here as I feel a rage building .

Jeff

sorry if I remain anonymous, but you would be wrong in your guess. I not only have four years in the Top 12 (80's myself), I am on the board of directors for a current DCI associate corps.

The corps I marched with never won, but we had a long tradition of innovation and excellence.

fact is, I'm right. This is no longer a community-based, get-kids-off-the-street activity. it's about recruiting and fundraising and keeping the program alive, but it's no longer about the kids. sorry, but a corps that cannot recruit or raise funds well is not going to last very long. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

[xmenjeffb]

sorry if I remain anonymous, but you would be wrong in your guess. I not only have four years in the Top 12 (80's myself), I am on the board of directors for a current DCI associate corps.

The corps I marched with never won, but we had a long tradition of innovation and excellence.

fact is, I'm right. This is no longer a community-based, get-kids-off-the-street activity. it's about recruiting and fundraising and keeping the program alive, but it's no longer about the kids. sorry, but a corps that cannot recruit or raise funds well is not going to last very long. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Ok thank you for answering. I am happy too know i was wrong on my guess.

So does that stand to reason you are on the board because you want a championship.

If it is not about the kids ,then why raise funds and recruit ??

I do agree with you about the need to recruit and i respect that you serve on a board. Both are a very difficult task. But as a long standing instructor I could not send my students to a corps that said it was not about the kids.And professed it was about building a championship program. I am in no way against winning or building to win. But not at the expense of the memebers experince. I just believe it can happen with them in mind. And i know what i am talking about because i have done it with the help of a strong staff , strong admin and board that provided direction to the staff . The members were the core of all of the choices we made. Did we win ?? No . Did we build a great tradition and competitve drum corps ?? Absolutly. Because the members were incredible kids and they recruited based on the experince they enjoyed. I will always be proud of the retention rates we had and maintained.

I agree it is not about taking kids off the street, in that ,you are correct at the DCI level. But the day that anyone convinces me it is not about the members experince is the day I no longer will be involved.

I respect your opinions and the time you give to your organization.

Jeff

[regularsopguy]

Ok thank you for answering. I am happy too know i was wrong on my guess.

So does that stand to reason you are on the board because you want a championship.

If it is not about the kids ,then why raise funds and recruit ??

I do agree with you about the need to recruit and i respect that you serve on a board. Both are a very difficult task. But as a long standing instructor I could not send my students to a corps that said it was not about the kids.And professed it was about building a championship program. I am in no way against winning or building to win. But not at the expense of the memebers experince. I just believe it can happen with them in mind. And i know what i am talking about because i have done it with the help of a strong staff , strong admin and board that provided direction to the staff . The members were the core of all of the choices we made. Did we win ?? No . Did we build a great tradition and competitve drum corps ?? Absolutly. Because the members were incredible kids and they recruited based on the experince they enjoyed. I will always be proud of the retention rates we had and maintained.

I agree it is not about taking kids off the street, in that ,you are correct at the DCI level. But the day that anyone convinces me it is not about the members experince is the day I no longer will be involved.

I respect your opinions and the time you give to your organization.

Jeff

Thank you Jeff. I'm on the board because when I joined I thought is was all about the kids. I still believe that, though to a far lessor degree. Our organization is an all-volunteer one, as well as member fee-based. Though we've experienced mild success in our few years of existence (less than 10), it is still hard to recruit and fundraise. Many of our members come from affluence, yet they drag their feet on paying their fees. We can't threaten them with sending them home or not giving them a spot because there are too many other activities vying for their attention and its not like people are standing in line to audition for our group. All-in-all, our staff works for free though we'd like to pay them. The ones who do produce excellence often move "up" to a paid position elsewhere. It's been hard to build our program.

Inmy marching days, I came from an established program where Bingo provided all the money we needed. The staff was paid well, and produced consistently good corps, but winning wasn't the goal...it was to field a corps and have fun. Certain individuals, however, mismanaged the corps and it is no longer in existence. The staff still had an obligation to the director and the board to produce excellence.

Getting back to the corps I represent (hence the need to remain anonymous). We barely get by today. If our staff was only going to make sure that the kids have a great summer, well, we wouldn't last very long. By working to excel at the activity we can help ensure the longevity of the program. It's easier to raise funds for "winners" than for "losers" in the eyes of the donors. I don't want to start a war with that statement, but raising money is much harder today than even a few years ago.

It could be argued though, that a great summer for the kids (including upholding the traditions of the past, some limited sightseeing, etc) would make it easier for them to come back next year, pay their fees willingly and build a program based on the experience.

At the top levels though, winning is everything. Kids won't drive or fly hundreds of miles to audition for a mediocre corps (there are a few exceptions of course) so excellence is crucial to recruitment. also, the staff won't get re-hired if they don't consistently produce excellence, and sometimes that means breaking tradition or some sort of compromise for the sake of numbers.

I'm certainly cynical about the activity. I've seen it go from community based to what it is today. I'm still a big fan, and I work hard to provide a great activity in our area, but the reality is that those kids sign up to work hard, and hopefully to win. Whatever gets them there is the payoff. If it means breaking tradition, then so be it. There are many corps who have lost their "identity" for the sake of winning, and it often pays off.

I want it to be about the kids, but I have said in board meetings that they are not the ones making decisions. We tell them what they are going to play, how they are going to move, what they will eat, whether they will drive home or fly home, where theywill sleep, and how much it will cost for all of the above. They don't factory in. yes, without members there is no more corps. no doubt about that! :P But at the upper levels of corps, there are plenty of kids who want to participate, write checks and excel.

I am constantly inspired and amazed by groups like Pioneer and all the div II/III corps who work so hard. I guess I was just generalizing when I said earlier that the the staff's obligatons are to the organization not the kids. it could be argued either way i suppose.

[xmenjeffb]

Thank you Jeff. I'm on the board because when I joined I thought is was all about the kids. I still believe that, though to a far lessor degree. Our organization is an all-volunteer one, as well as member fee-based. Though we've experienced mild success in our few years of existence (less than 10), it is still hard to recruit and fundraise. Many of our members come from affluence, yet they drag their feet on paying their fees. We can't threaten them with sending them home or not giving them a spot because there are too many other activities vying for their attention and its not like people are standing in line to audition for our group. All-in-all, our staff works for free though we'd like to pay them. The ones who do produce excellence often move "up" to a paid position elsewhere. It's been hard to build our program.

Inmy marching days, I came from an established program where Bingo provided all the money we needed. The staff was paid well, and produced consistently good corps, but winning wasn't the goal...it was to field a corps and have fun. Certain individuals, however, mismanaged the corps and it is no longer in existence. The staff still had an obligation to the director and the board to produce excellence.

Getting back to the corps I represent (hence the need to remain anonymous). We barely get by today. If our staff was only going to make sure that the kids have a great summer, well, we wouldn't last very long. By working to excel at the activity we can help ensure the longevity of the program. It's easier to raise funds for "winners" than for "losers" in the eyes of the donors. I don't want to start a war with that statement, but raising money is much harder today than even a few years ago.

It could be argued though, that a great summer for the kids (including upholding the traditions of the past, some limited sightseeing, etc) would make it easier for them to come back next year, pay their fees willingly and build a program based on the experience.

At the top levels though, winning is everything. Kids won't drive or fly hundreds of miles to audition for a mediocre corps (there are a few exceptions of course) so excellence is crucial to recruitment. also, the staff won't get re-hired if they don't consistently produce excellence, and sometimes that means breaking tradition or some sort of compromise for the sake of numbers.

I'm certainly cynical about the activity. I've seen it go from community based to what it is today. I'm still a big fan, and I work hard to provide a great activity in our area, but the reality is that those kids sign up to work hard, and hopefully to win. Whatever gets them there is the payoff. If it means breaking tradition, then so be it. There are many corps who have lost their "identity" for the sake of winning, and it often pays off.

I want it to be about the kids, but I have said in board meetings that they are not the ones making decisions. We tell them what they are going to play, how they are going to move, what they will eat, whether they will drive home or fly home, where theywill sleep, and how much it will cost for all of the above. They don't factory in. yes, without members there is no more corps. no doubt about that! :P But at the upper levels of corps, there are plenty of kids who want to participate, write checks and excel.

I am constantly inspired and amazed by groups like Pioneer and all the div II/III corps who work so hard. I guess I was just generalizing when I said earlier that the the staff's obligatons are to the organization not the kids. it could be argued either way i suppose.

All very understandable and becomes clear as to your intent. And i have little or no issue with breaking old habits and starting new traditions. It is a ever changing world and drum corps certainly should as well. When we staretd the Colts turn around we ran a bus from Alabama to Dubuque to help kids get to camps. They paid a fee but it was cheaper than flying .As the corps grew and inproved more kids came and there was a point where we no longer needed to run that bus for them.

I understand the dues part . Trust me , we spent lots of time tracking fees for members and helping them arrange a payment schedule even at the Crossmen and we were a Finalist. I know many corps arrange ways for members to get sponsors or work off dues . Some write checks but certainly not all of them . Doing drum corps on any level is a challenge for the boards , admin and the students. Finding staff that can tour is getting harder every season. Schools starting earlier in some areas , others finish late and many of todays instructors are teachers. Many corps as you speak of cant pay staff or cant pay them enough to get them on the road when the bands pay more .

I thank you for the exchange and offer you this , If my experience in any area can be of help in some way e mail me here and we will at least chat . I wish you and your corps well .