The wind ensemble brass approach

[siuehist]

Christ is this done soon?

[Bari-Player]

Darn those Cavaliers for playing their brass instruments like they should be played!!!

[Phantombari1]

Darn those Cavaliers for playing their brass instruments like they should be played!!!

I guess all of BD's Brass trophies are due to not playing them the way they should be played.

I'll take BD's horn over Cavies everyday of the week!

[Matt_S]

And I'll take them both! Lucky for me, I get exactly that every year.

[The Oz]

Just basic physics. Phase and constructive interference. Look it up. Or just don't believe me. I don't really care.

Alan, it's the truth. You can find many journal articles that support the evidence. I've done experiments here at FSU that show that signals in phase are much stronger than those that are even slightly out of phase.

In the examples you mentioned above (Alan), it could be that the louder hornline was just that much louder, and would have been louder regardless of being in tune or out of it. But...given equal talents (roughly), a hornline of 30 playing perfectly in tune would be louder than a hornline of 40 playing out of tune. In most cases.

Good explanation...I would add one word...Harmonics...if you're in tune, you get more harmonics...more harmonics=more volume...ie the volume as a group is greater than the sum of it's parts.

Lots of psuedo-science here. Let’s see if we can clean this up.

Intonation is playing in tune. That is, the fundamental pitch of a given note is exactly the same. If we’re playing concert A, we’re all playing at 440 Hz. Not some at 439 Hz and others at 441.

Now, in order for “constructive interference” to occur, the signals (waveforms) must not only be at the same precise pitch, they must also be in phase. This means that the zero crossings and peaks of the waveforms are precisely coincident in time.

Let’s take two horn players. And let’s assume that both of them have absolutely perfect control of their intonation. Let’s have them play that concert A. In order for constructive interference to occur, the waveforms must be in phase, at that point in space where the listener is. If the listener is not precisely the same distance from each player, the waves will arrive out of phase even though they are in phase at those points that are equidistant from both players. (Ignoring any wind, which will change the propagation speed. And ignoring any motion of the players which will change the apparent pitch of the notes.) Considering that the wavelength of concert A is approximately 2.3 feet, listeners sitting side-by-side in the stands may experience different phase states.

Let’s assume that the listener is equidistance from both players but the waveforms are still not in phase. Now one of the players must note the out-of-phase condition and cause an adjustment. Does anyone here at DCP know of any brass player capable of discerning an out of phase condition?

Let’s assume that we can find such a player. Now she has to bring the note back in phase. If we assume that the waveforms are 90 degrees out of phase, the player must advance or ###### the waveform by 1/4 (90 degrees /360) of a cycle, or, at 440 Hz, by .000568 seconds. Uhhhhh … That’s a pretty short time. Almost three orders of magnitude better than the best human reaction time.

To summarize, playing with perfect intonation does not produce constructive interference. And playing in phase is, realistically, impossible to control.

And yes, for you stickler’s for the truth, I have ignored harmonics. Deliberately. Considering harmonics in the waveform does not change the discussion.

Playing loud is simple. Move more air. Individually or collectively. Volume is a measure of the energy in the waveform and of the perception of the listener. Given an out-of-phase condition, the general state of brass playing, more horns move will move more air. And lower pitches have more energy then higher pitched notes. (This is why fog horns are low pitched.) And the human ear reacts differently to different pitches. (That’s why, when the pitch is too low, we don’t hear it, even though it may have more energy than a pitch we can hear.)

Grip it and blow it.

Thank you Mr. Wizard.

[Wild Nights]

No, they don't play with the edge some lines do, but they have a sound uniquely their own, and I can't say I've seen a crowd that looked bored by their line.

And I'll take them both! Lucky for me, I get exactly that every year.

I agree. If some of you had your way, there wouldn't be that distinctive Cavies brass sound anywhere during championships. I don't want everyone to sound like the Cavaliers, but I certainly don't want them to get rid of their sound either!

[ucfrellis]

That depends on what your definition of 'effective' is.

It is a fact that competitively - it is VERY effective.

r

[BD_Fan]

Wow, The Oz.....just wow!!!

[The Oz]

Wow, The Oz.....just wow!!!

One other interesting fact, if the listener’s right ear is precisely equidistant from the players, the left ear, being approximately 7 inches away from the right ear, will be hearing a phase difference. As much as one quarter of a wavelength (7 inches / 2.3 feet).

But I’m enjoying fnchdrms87's enlightened debate much more than my attempts to correct the science.

[The Oz]

But I’m enjoying fnchdrms87's enlightened debate much more than my attempts to correct the science.

Hey! They pulled fnchdrms87’s post!

The man loses it completely and we don’t get to enjoy the meltdown.

The DCP police are killjoys.

Edited August 11, 2006 by The Oz