The 2006 Cavaliers.

[RegimentContra94]

Well, if you can't sing anything at all from Frameworks, just listen to the opener again, the melody is repeated ad nauseum...

As for comparing Saucedo to the composers you mentioned: that's exactly what many of his detractors are doing in this thread. And as you've stated, that can't be done. But neither can you compare Wayne Downey, or Jay Bocook, or Scott Boerma to the names that you mentioned either. All of these men are very good at what they do, but I don't see any of them being remembered by history. We are a niche activity, and these men write for a niche market.

What's silly to me are the people who claim that, for example, Phantom's music is better than Saucedo's because it was written by Mahler and Prokofiev, etc. No, it wasn't. It was written by JD Shaw. Shaw used pieces from those composers, but drum corps is long past the point where arrangers attempted to recreate the original source exactly.

Today, arrangers create their own show, weaving pieces together into a new product. For an example, Glassmen used music of Beethoven, if not history's greatest composer then certainly in the top two or three. Would we say that their music was greater than anyone else's this past year? Or let's put it another way. I love Blue Rondo a la Turk, but I didn't really enjoy what either Blue Devils or Crossmen did with the piece in 2003. I can make that distinction because these were two, actually three, seperate creations.

So when we say history won't remember Saucedo, you might be right, but then history probably won't remember a single drum corps writer/arranger, even the names that we consider to be great. It would be unfair to compare Saucedo to Mahler or Shostakovich. It would be fair to compare him to Shaw or Bocook or Boerma. That's fine if you still find him lacking, but the perspective needs to change, I think.

A well thought out and written post, thank you. In response, JD Shaw, Bocook and Boerma are using source material from great composers. I don't care who arranges the oppening lick of Beethoven 5, it is still Beethoven. The reason people arrange music by the greats is because it is great music. If I may get a little cheesy, these melodies strike a chord in the listeners soul. Saucedo doesn't always arrange other's music. When he does, it is right up there with the best of them. You can't discount the source material. An arranger of existing music is not the same as a composer of original music. His completely original compositions are the ones I am discussing.

[truman]

What impressed me and satisfied me completely is the fact that the top two corps this year told a story completely through the use of their music and visual capabilities and needed no words or microphones to do it.

In the age of amplification/micc'd singing...Cavaliers and Phantom Regiment (among others) reached, touched, and communicated with the audience and not one word was needed, thats what drum and bugle corps is all about.

Bravo to them both.

~G~

Both?

Wow, (among others), is fairly disrespectful to BD. I thought they managed to tell their story pretty completely, certainly as well as the top2. B)

You even starting this thread by claiming such a dominating victory is laughable. I truly don't understand how the Machine could not win visual GE and win music captions. Just the oposite if what I SAW and HEARD. They should not have won any musical captions. The Cavies fans defend this using the "you aren't qualified and can't argue with the judges" defense. But when this so called "domination" is questioned, then .3 is no different than 3.3? You wan't dominating, try captions sweeps and margin of victory, and open a thread about "2005, The Zone, OMG the Best Show Ever!"

I salute the Cavs for a great win, and dominating performance in this decade. Their design of motion, then music, usually not at the same time, has advanced the visual program of DCI. I still prefer other corps, and I just don't agree that they are as far "ahead" of other styles as you claim. (see SCORES)

[jake_the_hydra]

A well thought out and written post, thank you. In response, JD Shaw, Bocook and Boerma are using source material from great composers. I don't care who arranges the oppening lick of Beethoven 5, it is still Beethoven. The reason people arrange music by the greats is because it is great music. If I may get a little cheesy, these melodies strike a chord in the listeners soul. Saucedo doesn't always arrange other's music. When he does, it is right up there with the best of them. You can't discount the source material. An arranger of existing music is not the same as a composer of original music. His completely original compositions are the ones I am discussing.

Right. But you're not discussing them in the context of his competition in the activity, you're discussing them in the context of music history. Which is a bit unfair.

[Scerpella]

But it didnt bother you that he equated my opinions with being on crack ??? ...hmmmmm

~G~

I wasnt following that closely, but yeah that wasnt a very nice thing to say.

[Scerpella]

Then you probably haven't listened to it much, or just don't like that kind of music. I can sing the whole ###### thing, and I know plenty of other people who can, too.

Well that makes you very special I think. Frameworks was a tremendous achievement particularly from a marching music standpoint but I dont know how many people could sing or hum it unless they are Bobby McFerrin! :P

[ChicagoFan]

I would have to disagree with you. The Cavaliers have and continue to be absolutely top drawer from a visual standpoint, no argument. However, musically, I find them coming up short. Before I get going, I am not coming without knowledge.....31 years in the activity, a B.S. in Music Ed and a Masters in Performance, a few championship rings in my dresser drawer, and too many years as an arranger/instructor to count.

I find their music to be lacking in expression, depth of sound, dynamic contrast, emotion, demand while moving, and extended sections of thin scoring (ie percussion and drill only) or very segmental horn charts. It was clearly evident that the brassline of Phantom Regiment had far more demand in every one of these aspects....yes, I do agree that the Cavies hornline was very, very clean....but the caption is also to consider a balance of how and WHAT....and they come up substantially short in the what aspect of their arrangements. The percussion judges did recognize this. Some brass and effect judges did, but others did not. I actually got to speak with several of my drum corps/educator friends in Madison: whereas some did not feel the same, the majority felt that Phantom had a significantly better musical package...enough to win the show.

I could have written this post myself. Like the original poster, I've accumulated quite a few years in the activity and have amassed more than my share of music degrees. My observations, therefore, are not made without experience and, hopefully, knowledge. And, also like Bob, I find the present incarnation of the Cavaliers to be masters of the visual but somewhat lacking in the musical department. I'm in no way disputing their victory -- for they have certainly learned to maximize their potential to fit the demands of the judging criteria -- but as a professional musician/educator, I simply did not find their musical book to be as challenging or as interesting as that of several other corps.

It is no secret that my musical tastes run in a particular direction but my own preferences and prejudices don't necessarily influence my analytical abilities. Yes, I would much prefer to hear Mahler, Stravinsky, Holst, Ellington, Brubeck, Bernstein, etc. to an original composition by Saucedo, Downey or other similar figures, but not soley for reasons of personal taste. Certain pieces of music speak to me as an educated musician in ways that others don't. The inticacies of melody, texture, harmony, form and rhythm (elements whose properties can be objectively analyzed and quantified) are more pronounced and fully realized in some compositions than in others, and it is the utilization of and response to these criteria that help me form my opinions.

Again, I have nothing but respect for the Cavaliers and their musical/design team and offer my congratulations on a well-earned chamipionship. I simply want to add my voice to those few that are not entirely enamoured of the current musical path the corps has decided to follow and make known my desire for a return to one of more substance.

Edited September 7, 2006 by ChicagoFan

[triplefunk]

I think one thing can be said about this arranging/original debate. arranging has been around since the beginning of drum corps, pure original music has just started. If I'm incorrect I believe the first original show that won, was the cavaliers in 00? Original music/shows is still in it's infancy compared to arranging.

[dciguy1987]

Then you probably haven't listened to it much, or just don't like that kind of music. I can sing the whole ###### thing, and I know plenty of other people who can, too.

Because its repetetive, lacks development and is easy. Congratulations!

[triplefunk]

geez, are we bashing again? c'mon.

[rut-roh]

geez, are we bashing again? c'mon.

Ignore it, it's all he's got.