Let's Discuss A Solution...

[mistofflies]

DCI was formed by touring corps, to serve touring corps. It's authority, however, has extended far beyond just those few "member corps".

Ultimately, it's the directors of the voting member corps (division I units that have made top 21 three years running, or something like that - membership is not available to division II/III units). They have chosen to delegate most of the BOD tasks to an "executive board" consisting of about four of those corps directors, DCI's executive director and several "at-large directors" (people with relevant business or activity expertise, but no corps affiliation). One representative from division II/III is allowed to participate in discussions at executive board meetings, but he/she cannot vote on any decisions this board makes.

Trying to answer those questions will send this thread into a tailspin of tangential debate.

That's about it - unless discussions on DCP have any influence on the decision-makers.

As you are starting to see, DCI wasn't originally formed for that purpose. DCI's governance structure still fosters the "members-only" mission of it's founders. And while DCI's mission statements, PR materials and actions all show some attention toward non-member corps over the years, it remains a debate to this day (not just on this board, but in the DCI boardroom) as to whether DCI should serve anyone other than 20 or so "member corps".

Thanks for the clarification of my questions. I particularly like "tailspin of tangential debate."

Honestly the current model really doesn't seem like the best possible model to encourage the growth of all corps and the activity as a whole. Perhaps it's analogous to the government offering special contracts to firms like Halliburton and whatnot. Not to start a political debate, but this happens in politics all the time. People trade favors and "look out for their own." In this case, it would seem that DCI really doesn't care a whole lot about D2/3 and lower D1...but instead is looking to continue to build up the corps that are already strong. That seems a bit like a fallacy to me.

What if we were to propose a new model of DCI? What if DCI were to become an independent governing unit, instead of one composed only by representation from the elite of the activity? (Man that "e" word has gotten a lot of use around here lately...) What if we formed a DCI where alumni were allowed to vote on a board of directors and corps directors form ALL corps got representation? How would we even pay for that or work out the logistics? Seems like it would be a bit complicated but hey, it also seems like it the activity would be a lot better off if the governing body were composed of a nonpartisan group of elected and reprsentative officals who could look out for the welfare of the entire activity and get serious about spreading this thing throughout the country.

I'm actually a little puzzled as to why a "members-only" organization would form in the first place. I mean, we're all here to do the same thing, why segregate ourselves? A house divided and all that jazz....right??? The more I think about it the more the plight of underrepresented corps really bothers me....and I march in a D1 corps so it's not like I'm bitter, but rather, I want this activity to grow and spread and encompass as many people as possible who have the greatest experience they could have.

Maybe it's time for someone to offer the alternative to DCI...or at least, a restructuring...

But to answer the original point, I really can't think of any reason why DCI would have any interest in building up the D2/3 corps. Other than just being concerned for the general welfare of the activity, but as long as the big guys are still around and are relatively un-threatened, I don't see them becoming too terribly concerned about it. Am I being too cynical?

[mistofflies]

If you are advocating a return to independent regional organizations, there are many issues that you would have to deal with - the first being defining their reason for existence.

A couple examples of items to be worked out:

1) Corps pay - in the good old days with DCE, DCW and DCM, they had different pay scales for the corps who performed at their events. So, if a corps from Ohio pointed their busses east one year and west the next year, it had real financial implications to that corps.

2) What do you do with corps that are not located close enough to join a region? Where do corps from Texas, Kansas, Tennessee or Alberta go - DCM, DCE or DCW?

I'm actually not talking about having independent regional organizations, but rather restructuring the current touring model to more closely resemble a regional model. So, one governing organization, but a restructuring which allows corps to receive the benefits of BOTH models. As far as what the regions are, I'd have to sit down with a map and I'm about to be out of town for the weekend...so maybe I can do that when I get back. But I did give a general suggestion of about 8 regions which I think would cover everything nicely. Some borders would be a little blurry, of course, but I think it would be fair and the best you can do without fracturing touring corps into groups that are too small to practically put on shows.

If you want DCI to oversee the regions you still need at least 3 things to fall into place:

1) A critical mass of groups to compete and travel within a given geographic area.

2) Show sponsors who are willing to hold an event. (DCI would have to schedule carefully to ensure that sponsors are not competing with each other for the same audience.)

3) Headling corps. I think this is one of the most important issues and the one most often overlooked on DCP. In order for a sponsor to be interested in taking on a show and in order for the ticket buying public to be interested in attending, you need one or more "headliner" groups to be in competition. If The Cavaliers or the Blue Devils are in the show, no problem. What if the show sponsor is offered either the Bluecoats, Carolina Crown or Blue Knights as the headliner for their event? It may depend on the area of the country - but that would probably still work. However, somewhere an imaginary line is drawn (top 6, top 8, top 10?) - any groups below that line are great to have in the event but they cannot headline the event. In other words, to be more blunt - which corps puts butts in the seats? Which groups drive ticket sales?

Unfortunately, in this case it is the audience members who are being elitist. There are large numbers of fans (even engaged people like DCP members) who will not buy a ticket to a show where an 11th place, 15th place or 21st place corps was the headliner.

In my proposition, DCI would handle the show sponsoring. I think that the "synthetic regional tour" that I suggested could be set up in a way that would allow corps to be practically grouped for touring. As far as show sponsors go, that's a tough one. It's a two-edged sword, because on one you don't want shows too far apart otherwise it defeats the purspose, but people aren't going to sponsor a show if they aren't going to at least get their money back. But that's what the advertising is for, right? With the right marketing campaign, you could drive out enough people that the shows would be more profitable and therefore you could also schedule them closer together. Maybe not in neighboring towns, but definitely closer than 300-400 miles. I think you would get a lot more "local" audiences as well, as there are many high school kids and families that would probably go to a show that's an hour away (or in their own city) that couldn't or wouldn't go to a show that's 3 hours away. So I guess some surveying would have to be done as to who would attend....I think that closer shows would allow to you get higher audience numbers...but that's just me.

And in the model I'm trying to advocate, the key is a very strong and driven marketing campaign which will drive out NEW faces, and not just people out to see their favorite D1 top 12 corps. At West Monroe, LA this past summer, about half the audience was totally brand new to corps. 50%!! And they don't care if it's the Blue Devils or Pioneer, they're going to be amazed by whatever they see. That would nullify the need to have a top 6 corps headline the event.

IMO, I think one of the keys is the parity efforts that have been started in the last few years. Practically speaking, I don't forsee a day any time soon where there will be 20 or 25 corps all as good as the top 4 or 5 are now. However, I can see some of the current middle of the pack groups getting better and possibly rising to potential "headliner" status. Consider the implications if we had 15 legitimate headliners able to hold events all around the country instead of the limited number we have today. (It doesn't matter what your opinion on regionalization is, I think that would still be a big step forward.)

I agree with you here. The higher the quality of corps in general, the better off the activity is going to be. Kind of a no-brainer but...it still hasn't happened in practice yet, so maybe there's something we're all missing!

[ScribeToo]

Thanks for the clarification of my questions. I particularly like "tailspin of tangential debate."

I strongly recommend you keep asking the original question of MANY different people on this board and around the activity in general.

I also encourage you strongly to seek out Don Warren at a DCI event sometime (if you're ever in the midwest on tour.. he's usually at the Cavalier home shows and very approachable -- or maybe come to a camp sometime to watch rehearsal -- have lunch or supper with the corps.. he's usually there and you can sit down and talk with him over a meal) and ask him, too. He was one of "the guys" who helped DCI become a reality. I think he's an excellent source for "the real story" and he loves to tell it (and any of his stories) to anyone who cares to listen.

A question like yours deserves as unbiased an answer as you can glean from a composite of LOTS of takes on the situation.. and the factual information is available from anyone who knows.. but perceptions and opinions about those facts (like the ones you just got from Ken) are as different as the day is long depending on who's expounding.

Good luck!

Stef

[mistofflies]

I strongly recommend you keep asking the original question of MANY different people on this board and around the activity in general.

I also encourage you strongly to seek out Don Warren at a DCI event sometime (if you're ever in the midwest on tour.. he's usually at the Cavalier home shows and very approachable -- or maybe come to a camp sometime to watch rehearsal -- have lunch or supper with the corps.. he's usually there and you can sit down and talk with him over a meal) and ask him, too. He was one of "the guys" who helped DCI become a reality. I think he's an excellent source for "the real story" and he loves to tell it (and any of his stories) to anyone who cares to listen.

A question like yours deserves as unbiased an answer as you can glean from a composite of LOTS of takes on the situation.. and the factual information is available from anyone who knows.. but perceptions and opinions about those facts (like the ones you just got from Ken) are as different as the day is long depending on who's expounding.

Good luck!

Stef

I'll have to do that sometime. I've actually talked to him before, once, at a Cavaliers audition camp and I'd have to agree with you, he's great to talk to and his stories are a hoot (and he loves to tell them)!

This thread has really gotten my interested into learning more about why DCI was formed, and what could be done today to improve upon our current model. I love corps...and I want to make sure it's still there in the future for my kids and their kids and on and on.

But I also want to see corps grow and spread to new minds and new faces. My parents came to the West Monroe show, and they brought my mom's brother and his wife who live in the area (my parents are from Louisiana originally, and my family there never gets to see me). Let me tell you, my uncle and aunt were BLOWN AWAY by the performances. Of course, they were partial to my corps.. B) ...but my uncle was even talking about how they need to have a show in Shreveport (which is right next to Monroe) and how he was going to tell all his friends about it and talk to people about getting a show there and everything.

That's the power of this activity...why have we failed in harnessing that effectively and bringing it to new audiences? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe we haven't failed...am I not seeing the whole picture?

[Tom Brace]

DCI would most likely not go to having Div Is tour with II/IIIs. I think as it is right now, it's up to the sho sponsors how many corps come and of what type come to a local show. As far as regionals...and the Summer Marching Extravaganza Series Music Games or whatever it's called...San Antonio, Indy, etc. it's just the Div. Is (except I thin Revo got to march exhibition last year in San Antonio.

Anyway, I don't get what would be in it for a show sponsor to pay...oh, let's say $1200 for Div. III Corps A when Div. I corps X costs them $2500. Can Div III corps A bring in 100 fans at $12 bucks each as compared to a Div. I corps bringing in 225 fans at the same $12 value ticket?

So, maybe a forum outside of DCI might be the answer here...ok...same problem...who goes to see these regional or local corps? What is a drum corps show when no one comes to see it?

I've been to DCI focus shows for II/III....prelims on a Friday...ALL DAY...30+ corps...for FREE...about 17 people in the stands. On Saturday night finals...if it wasn't for the corps sticking around after prelims, I think the stands would be 1/4 full at best. What is drum corps when no one comes to see it?

DCI continues to make huge dollars on their national tour. Look at Atlanta this year...people paid to see the top Div. I corps. II/IIIs weren;t invited. Dollars for DCI member corps.

How do we get a regional contest to be successful? Academy had a huge crowd this year for the Div. II/III show it hosted in July. HUGE!!! Almost as many people as were in Madison for II/III finals. How did they do it? What was their secret? Can it be duplicated?

Also, (borrowed from another thread)...if we regionalize touring...can we also force regional membership? No more getting a corps from Texas marching band kids and slapping our towns name on the side of the truck and calling it our drum corps. How do we get the kids from our town into one of these regional corps?

Sorry...probably just some more to chew on.

[mistofflies]

Tom, I'm all over that post and I'll get back to you when I'm back in town on Sunday!

But on that last part...I kind of hope they don't enforce regional membership because I definitely don't live anywhere near the corps I march in! But that discussion is something we'll have to examine later...

Have a great weekend, folks!

[drumcat]

DCI would most likely not go to having Div Is tour with II/IIIs. I think as it is right now, it's up to the sho sponsors how many corps come and of what type come to a local show. As far as regionals...and the Summer Marching Extravaganza Series Music Games or whatever it's called...San Antonio, Indy, etc. it's just the Div. Is (except I thin Revo got to march exhibition last year in San Antonio.

Anyway, I don't get what would be in it for a show sponsor to pay...oh, let's say $1200 for Div. III Corps A when Div. I corps X costs them $2500. Can Div III corps A bring in 100 fans at $12 bucks each as compared to a Div. I corps bringing in 225 fans at the same $12 value ticket?

So, maybe a forum outside of DCI might be the answer here...ok...same problem...who goes to see these regional or local corps? What is a drum corps show when no one comes to see it?

I've been to DCI focus shows for II/III....prelims on a Friday...ALL DAY...30+ corps...for FREE...about 17 people in the stands. On Saturday night finals...if it wasn't for the corps sticking around after prelims, I think the stands would be 1/4 full at best. What is drum corps when no one comes to see it?

DCI continues to make huge dollars on their national tour. Look at Atlanta this year...people paid to see the top Div. I corps. II/IIIs weren;t invited. Dollars for DCI member corps.

How do we get a regional contest to be successful? Academy had a huge crowd this year for the Div. II/III show it hosted in July. HUGE!!! Almost as many people as were in Madison for II/III finals. How did they do it? What was their secret? Can it be duplicated?

Also, (borrowed from another thread)...if we regionalize touring...can we also force regional membership? No more getting a corps from Texas marching band kids and slapping our towns name on the side of the truck and calling it our drum corps. How do we get the kids from our town into one of these regional corps?

Sorry...probably just some more to chew on.

Tom, I think for all intents and purposes, Academy drew like a D1 this year, and it was a home show. I would suspect that Division 2, if it were to indeed be the offshoot that we all want where it can draw a descent showing, you'll need to have more "full" corps. If you had a D2 show with Academy, ECJ, Spartans, etc., you'd have a helluva show. D2 corps are regional, so that's hard. But if there were some way to encourage D2's to be full, you'd see more excitement about it. The honest truth though is that if I heard that there was going to be a D2/3 show, then I'm perceiving it to be something more like a high school band day. That myth would go away if they were "big" groups. I also think we should stop calling them "Division 2" and "Division 3". Maybe we should be calling them "National", "Regional", and "Field" corps, and bring up the membership minimums.

Just for fun, what would you think if instead of the D1 limits like there are now, which shouldn't change, D2 had a limit of 101-150, D3 had a limit of 60-100, and corps between 30-60 were exhibition only? Yes, I know that would have hurt a corps like the Mandarins, so ya, I know. But if corps had to have more kids, we'd get loud, less clean stuff that was more fun, rather than the polished 45 kids that aren't that loud, are very talented, and end up beating programs with lots of kids... I might even say the minimum should be 75 or so.

[Tom Brace]

Just for fun, what would you think if instead of the D1 limits like there are now, which shouldn't change, D2 had a limit of 101-150, D3 had a limit of 60-100, and corps between 30-60 were exhibition only? Yes, I know that would have hurt a corps like the Mandarins, so ya, I know. But if corps had to have more kids, we'd get loud, less clean stuff that was more fun, rather than the polished 45 kids that aren't that loud, are very talented, and end up beating programs with lots of kids... I might even say the minimum should be 75 or so.

I offered a Div. III minimum number at 50 and was almost beheaded in the II/III forum.

I'm not opposed to the idea that corps under a certain number would not compete but rather teach beginning methods of playing and marching (hopefully at the same time) and perform accessible shows (for instance, film, brodway show music, middle/high school upper wind ensemble level music (Saucedo, Swearingen, Holsinger, Curnow, etc.) even video game soundtracks, in exhibition.

Maybe make it 40 for a year, then 45, then 50, etc. Give the corps a chance to grow.

[Jeff Ream]

D2/3 shows, for the most part are in out of the way places, and dont get the advertising they deserve.

but i see something happening on the left coast, and i think as the D1 regional typoe corps option gets more popular, this could work.

you often see PC, Esperanza and the Mandarins performing at shows w/left Coast D2/3 corps after the big guns leave for tour. i think this is an excellent idea. say if Surf went regional D1 next year, they could do shows w/the Eastern D2/3 corps.

that model can work.

[Tom Brace]

I believe if you ark the area west of Denver, to the Pacific, they now have lots more corps today than they had 10 years ago. LOOK EVERYONE>>>GROWTH IN MODERN DRUM CORPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!