difference between G and Bflat horns...

[idontwan2know]

what the technic level of a book has to do with the volume? I don't see the connection...

Not much. The technical level has a lot to do with maintaining quality sound, though. I'm simply not as impressed with the corps who remove a ton of musical impediments from their book, then brag about their sound quality and bag on groups that are taking much greater risks and occasionally not sounding great as a result.

I don't believe in sacrificing tone quality for volume. But I don't believe in sacrificing musicality for tone quality, either. Drum corps requires an expanded dynamic range because of the nature of the performance environment and I think that some corps have gone to extreme with the "don't sacrifice to the volume gods" teaching that they've severely limited the potential musical impact of their lines.

Well, I've been studying for a long time and I think my ears are quite trained to understand what is good and what is not. And I'm not talking about what I like or not and what other people might like or not... simple example: a brighter tone color is often utilized in jazz, a lot less in classical music. different contests, different sounds. Both can be good, both can be awful. But probably the "brighter" or somehow "dirty" (which is not, in this case, a bad thing) one wouldn't fit a classical environment... the "symphonic" sound is, to me, the best thing to look for as a drum corps' hornline. Matching articulation, energy, balance... this is what makes a brass section sound good. Then someone might like something else, but that's about taste, not about quality.

Agreed, though the "wind ensemble" school I'm talking about is not particularly "symphonic". There is a growing schism between the two schools in brass playing. Symphonic brass players still understand that power is one of the hallmarks of the brass instrument and something that should be worked to bring under control, rather than a dirty thing we shouldn't display in public.

I personally don't care if you don't like the "wind ensemble's sound of the last ten years". But there's a GIGANTIC difference between corps applying it to their hornlines and corps not doing it. Quite easy to be heard.

Indeed, and there are corps that sound good without it.

There are more alternatives than "Don't play loud, you MIGHT sound bad!" and "Blow your junk off and who cares what you sound like!"

[SpartacusRocks]

As I kick the dead horse one more time..

I thought one of the main arguements for Bb was that starting a corps would be cheaper also since u could use band intruments instead of bugles. But I have not seen a massive influx of new corps.

I too remember many people saying that by switching from G's to Bb's, it would be easier to start-up corps, recruit players, and finance new horns. All of this may be true (it certainly seems logical) but it still could be too early to tell how much of difference the switch made. Also, there's no way to tell how many kids we would have lost had DCI stayed with G's.

[knightsbari]

Have been told 89 Regiment had a powerful hornline.

I would have given anything to see that show from the stands just once.

1 Im with ya on that one

2 I had a friend in the contra line that year ... still has his music from that show ... STILL waiting for him to dig it out and make a copy for me like he said he was going to like 2 - 3 years ago.

[ScottPREuph]

This is probably the most comprehensive presentation I have read on the subject. Originally posted way back in 1997 on RAMD by Peter Bond. I think he knows a few things. This is most of the article. [http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch/bonsym97.txt]

By the late 60's and early 70's, the brass sound of drum corps was improving dramatically.

Instruments were improving (although still in the rotor-valve style), arrangements were better,

and teaching improved. Most likely, musically trained alumni were responsible (an interesting

potential research topic). More kids with some music skills were also attracted to corps. By the

mid-70's (under DCI now), the field shows of the top corps were so entertaining and

professionally executed that bands began to emulate them. The top hornlines now combined

tremendous acoustic power with improved intonation, technique, and skillful arrangements to

become the envy of "corps style" bands. Personally, I find the irony of this somewhat satisfying.

Today's best marching bands can and do every thing that a DCI corps can do except make that

SOUND.

The G "bugle" makes this powerful sound possible. What is it and how does it differ from a Bb

instrument? I will confine my comparison to the soprano bugle in G and the Bb trumpet.

Because it has come up on RAMD, I will touch on brass nomenclature. There are theoretically

two families of brasswinds (excluding saxophones): 1) Bugles (conical or tapering bore);

including the french horn, flugelhorn, cornet, (true) bugle, tuba, etc., are characterized by a

"mellow" sound, which blends easily. 2) Trumpets (cylindrical bore); trumpet and trombone,

have a more brilliant, penetrating sound with greater projection.

Modern instruments (except the slide trombone) are actually a blend or compromise of conical

and cylindrical tubing in proportions which will give each instrument it's characteristic sound

(or approximation thereof) with the best possible pitch tendencies. For example, a true

cylindrical trumpet would be out of tune to our "well-tempered" ears (see J.S. Bach; "The Well

tempered Clavier"), so a percentage of the tubing is tapered like a cornet, to bring it (closer) in

tune. Enough of this.

The soprano is actually an alto trumpet in G. The proportion of cylindrical to conical tubing is

about the same as the modern Bb trumpet. The term "bugle" as it relates to DCI corps today is

simply a nod to tradition. It's a big trumpet.

I will explore the issue by responding to (summarized) comments I have read on RAMD.

* "The key of the instrument doesn't make a difference."

Wrong. The key is determined by the length of tubing (and proportionally larger bell). You can

play the same pitch on different length instruments, but the longer instrument will have a

"deeper", "richer" sound (due to more overtones and a lower fundamental). This difference is

subtle at the space of a « step (Bb to A trumpet, D to Eb), more obvious at the whole step to

Bb trumpet), and at a minor third (G to Bb), anybody can tell. The sonority and (potential) power

is markedly different. I have conducted playing tests with some of my colleagues in the MET

Orchestra and it's "no contest"; a trumpet in low G can acoustically obliterate a professional Bb

trumpet with ease. This difference x 30 players is enormous.

* "Bb trumpets are better instruments."

A useful metaphor is that of a Ferrari Grand Prix racing machine and a Honda Civic. Which is

the better car? They are designed for completely different purposes. The Civic won't fare well at

the track in Monte Carlo, and the Ferrari is useless in stop-and-go traffic. The Bb trumpet is the

superior instrument indoors, where there is an acoustic resonance. The G bugle played in the

same register indoors is unwieldy, and at a fortissimo sounds positively apocalyptic. Outdoors,

where there is little or no reinforcing acoustic, and tremendous volume is required to reach the

audience, the G bugle-although not of the same quality construction as a professional Bb

trumpet-projects a robust sound to the stands (in the hands of a well trained player), and the Bb

trumpet sounds nasal and puny by comparison.

* "Bb trumpets are better in tune (thereby potentially louder, and of course, in tune)."

Yes. A professional model Bb trumpet played correctly has superior pitch tendencies. A student

instrument; less so. Some G sopranos (3-valve) I have played are appalling, others; no problem.

Bugles are not built with the same quality control or care as top-of-the-line Bb trumpets. There

are more "lemons".

In my experience, the player's technique and "ears" are by far the bigger intonation variable. A

player who plays the one out of tune is no better on the other instrument. Likewise, a player with

good pitch can play both instruments well. I don't mean to minimize the frustrating effects of

poor instruments- some of them are truly awful- and every horn should be tested by a competent

player before purchase, just as you would a personal Bb trumpet. An in-tune horn line is louder

than an out-of-tune line, but the G instruments will always win the volume contest, and they can

be played with splendid intonation. That's where teaching comes in.

I should also mention that marching band trumpeters very often create a distorted and

out-of-tune sound on their Bb's in an effort to "fill a stadium" or emulate a corps sound.

* "G bugles are harder to play."

Playing the G bugle presents the same challenges as a Bb, but with a little bigger sound to

control, and a minor third pitch difference. Some players find the bigger size and reduced

acoustic resistance liberating, and others perceive it as a loss of control, and find it

uncomfortably "open". It's an adjustment to be sure, but one a good teacher can help with

(telling them what to expect, forgiving early errors). It requires a slightly modified technique

because of the idiom in which it is used and what it was designed to do; project a "big" sound at

very high dynamic levels outdoors. Playing with accuracy in the upper register is more difficult.

That is the major trade-off for the tone. I find that proper technique on the bugle compliments

trumpet playing.

Generally, the pitch difference gives Bb players the biggest problem at first; particularly when

reading music. The player sees a note on the page and expects it to sound three half-steps higher

than is correct on the bugle. It usually takes a couple of days to adjust. Again, good teaching can

make all the difference.

* "Can't they design a big Bb trumpet with the same tone?"

No. There's no getting around the acoustics of that longer tubing. Furthermore, mouthpieces,

tubing, bores, tapers and bells only work together within a limited range of sizes and

proportions. For instance, American Bb trumpet bore sizes only range from .459 to .470. Beyond

that, it doesn't work any more for the notes we need to play. An extreme example is that of a

trumpet player buzzing his or her mouthpiece in a baritone or trombone as many of us did in

middle school band. Funny sound.

* "Bb trumpets and multi-key brasses would be less expensive."

Here's the Kanstul price list for G bugles as of 12/04/97:

Soprano $500

"Powerbore" sop 550

Mellophone 625

Baritone 825

Baritone "Grande" 875

Euphonium 1995

5/4 Contra (no case)4995

A top-of-the-line Bb trumpet will start around $1200 and go up. The "Marching Brass"

middle-voice instruments seem comparably priced with their bugle counterparts. I don't have the

convertible tuba prices in front of me right now, but they are easy to obtain. Work it out. Keep in

mind that to be competitive, no corps (with the money) is going to buy student model

instruments if something better is available. What is now one of the remaining areas of

competition with a "level playing field" for the both the major powers and the lesser

corps-hornline instrumentation-will tilt toward the guys with the cash. Judging critiques would

become a nightmare.

* "Multi-key DCI competition wouldn't bar those that wish to remain with the G horns."

G bugles are manufactured by only two companies that I am aware of; DEG and Kanstul. With

fewer corps playing these specialty instruments, how much longer will they be available? I'm

frankly surprised that they are still made now, but we should appreciate how beautifully suited

the activity they are. Once they go out of production (as I suspect they would), would we ever be

able to return to them should it be determined that "yes, that's the sound we wanted all along"? I

doubt it. This is admittedly sheer speculation on my part.

There are other arguments, but I am finding this as tedious to write as it must be to read. Allow

me to forward a thought: Is it possible that all of the aforementioned arguments are just so much

smoke? A distraction, as it were. Is there another reason that some major players in DCI

advocate allowing band instruments into competition?

What would it be worth to a major manufacturer of band instruments, in terms of national sales,

to be able produce magazine ads, complimentary posters, calendars, etc., with color photos of

the top DCI corps-the ideal (and idols) of hundreds of corps-style marching bands from coast to

coast-playing the manufacturer's instruments above say, the corporate logo? How about wearing

the logo?

Several complete sets of instruments, surely. Perhaps much more. Pure speculation of course,

but not that far out, given the potential market involved, and the example of the marching

percussion scene.

To summarize:

I maintain that the G "bugles" constitute the only area in which Drum and Bugle Corps can be

discerned from an all-brass marching band. Outdoors, where corps perform, G "bugles" are

superior to trumpets, "marching trombones" and the like-having been designed (albeit slowly)

for just that purpose-and are responsible for the thrilling, powerful "corps sound" or "sonic

identity" which fans have come to expect.

Whatever happens, discussion should proceed from facts and decisions be made on the basis of

what is in the best interest of the activity as a whole.

[ravedodger]

I heard a rumor last year that Glassmen were having a Bb BUGLE specially designed for them. I forget the manufacturer .. but for some reason Kastul comes to mind. IS there any truth to this? Anyone know?

That would be Kanstul that makes a trumpet with the taper of their bugle bell. SCV had them for part of 03 or 04, I can't remember now. I think I read somewhere that CC uses King horns, but I could be wrong. If they do use King, it would be nice to see what they do for a Bb with a Kanstul style bugle bell.

[ravedodger]

...The real reasons for the perceived sound differences between G and Bb hornlines are 1) because of the bass being pitched lower and the impact resulting from the slightly deeper notes that result (although this is debatable as well), and ...

You're right. Aren't four valves legal? If so, then a four valve tuba should play much lower than a two or three valve G horn.

[Martybucs]

I'm drum corps through and through and they'll have to pry my G horn from my cold dead hands!

...he said tongue in cheek.

[Dave]

You're right. Aren't four valves legal? If so, then a four valve tuba should play much lower than a two or three valve G horn.

But I'm talking about where the horn is pitched, not how low it can play. And even still, a 4v G horn can go lower than a 4v Bb horn just because of where it's pitched.

[FH4life]

solid reading, ScottPREuph. Thank you. I'd like to focus on the last sentence:

"Whatever happens, discussion should proceed from facts and decisions be made on the basis of what is in the best interest of the activity as a whole."

I believe that the economic aspect is inside "the best interest". Do you guys think that keeping the G horns would have been the right decision? They made drum corps sound in a unique way, that's for sure. But I do believe that moving to any key helped in gaining sound quality (in most cases) and makes horns easier to be resold.

[shawn craig]

solid reading, ScottPREuph. Thank you. I'd like to focus on the last sentence:

"Whatever happens, discussion should proceed from facts and decisions be made on the basis of what is in the best interest of the activity as a whole."

I believe that the economic aspect is inside "the best interest". Do you guys think that keeping the G horns would have been the right decision? They made drum corps sound in a unique way, that's for sure. But I do believe that moving to any key helped in gaining sound quality (in most cases) and makes horns easier to be resold.

Outside of the top few, how many corps actually resell their instruments and get new ones every year or two? If you're keeping them longer you're not going to get a lot for them, there pretty worn out.

Have any lower teir corps sold their Bb's and bought new horns in say just 2 or so years?