Boston's Closer!

[dcpguy1111]

Should have been Conquest ... should always be CONQUEST forever and ever and ever. the end! That was their identity for how many DECADES?

Snippets from Conquest can be found in pretty much every Boston show still since 1999. Trust me, the corps is still very in tune with its identity and history.

When you hear them this summer if you are able, remember two words...water hose.

I'm curious, have you been to any of the corps camps this year? Do you know anything about the talent level? The level of the brass book? What the staff is trying to achieve? Seriously, tell me if you have. Please make me feel better by at least telling me you aren't completely pulling everything you're saying out of your rear.

[ciabattadm]

When you hear them this summer if you are able, remember two words...water hose.

w/Stp:

[supersop]

Find its own identity? Boston has had its own identity since 1940, sir. I think as far as identity is concerned, the corps members and the staff both have an incredibly strong idea on the image the corps establishes for itself. Latin music is a very #### good representation of Boston's aggressive and masculine approach to performance as a corps, and obviously the corps has had it's moments with it. I'm really actually appalled as an alumni of the Suncoast Sound (the group a good chunk of the BAC staff marched) would make such an uninformed and presumptuous statement. How do you know anything about the arrangement of La Fiesta, how it's going to sound and will be approached by the design team, it hasn't even been written yet!!!

As far as La Fiesta is concerned, what is the problem with Boston playing it anyway. To be honest, no one in the top 12 has really played it since BD in 1984, and at that was over 20 years ago!! People on this board expect the Madison Scouts to play Malaga and Malaguena every frig year and they're hunky dory, but Boston pulls out a tune that really hasn't been played in the top Div. 1 circuit in a very long time, and they get flamed. Of course you are totally entitled to your opinion, but can we at least have the decency to WAIT and see what the corps is going to do before we completely bash what the design team is trying to do for you people. Yes, YOU. Every step the design team at Boston makes, especially this year (definitely opposed to last year), the staff is thinking about audience reaction and making sure the crowd is entertained while giving a worthwhile product to the judges. You know, to all you people who incessantly complain on here about corps not thinking about the audience, well here's Boston trying to give everything they can back and they get bashed. But whatever, what can you do really.

Statement reserved for August 19, 2007:

"There's a reason nobody in DCI has pulled out that tune ... see BD 1984. The creative teams of DCI corps today don't have the guts to make a hornline play a beefy book with todays visual demands. 1) If they did it would sound like crap. 2) If they did it would sound like crap. They will continue to spread the tough parts into the pit and right a bunch of big phat whole notes for the brass. Further, I don't think they know how to teach the modern members how to play with the power necessary to pull off a chart like La Fiesta.

Boston is still searching for a winning formula at the expense of their historical identity. The last time Boston had the right idea was 2000. It was an IN YOUR FACE drum corps show. Not alot of hosing. Not a ton of jazz running. No extra fluff. Just power drum corps. They even managed to get the hits from Conquest into the closer, which is the true identifiable motif of that song. I hope they figure it out soon because that closer, in particular, was AS PREDICTED!"

And don't bother bringing corps affiliations into your responses. This comes from me personally as a FAN of Boston. I'm well documented as such. I wouldn't be so critical (nor would the other posters, I imagine) if I didn't care so dang much.

Edited April 5, 2007 by supersop

[dcpguy1111]

Statement reserved for August 19, 2007:

"There's a reason nobody in DCI has pulled out that tune ... see BD 1984. The creative teams of DCI corps today don't have the guts to make a hornline play a beefy book with todays visual demands. 1) If they did it would sound like crap. 2) If they did it would sound like crap. They will continue to spread the tough parts into the pit and right a bunch of big phat whole notes for the brass. Further, I don't think they know how to teach the modern members how to play with the power necessary to pull off a chart like La Fiesta.

Hmm, from what I've heard, and with all the apparent talent in the hornline this year, La Fiesta is supposed to be a pretty challenging book, as is the rest of the show the corps has received thus far. Seriously, all this thread is, is a lame reason to trash on the corps.

Boston is still searching for a winning formula at the expense of their historical identity. The last time Boston had the right idea was 2000. It was an IN YOUR FACE drum corps show. Not alot of hosing. Not a ton of jazz running. No extra fluff. Just power drum corps. They even managed to get the hits from Conquest into the closer, which is the true identifiable motif of that song. I hope they figure it out soon because that closer, in particular, was AS PREDICTED!"

How do you know this, are you at the corps design meetings? Do you talk to the staff?

[Coaster]

Find its own identity? Boston has had its own identity since 1940, sir. I think as far as identity is concerned, the corps members and the staff both have an incredibly strong idea on the image the corps establishes for itself. Latin music is a very #### good representation of Boston's aggressive and masculine approach to performance as a corps, and obviously the corps has had it's moments with it. I'm really actually appalled as an alumni of the Suncoast Sound (the group a good chunk of the BAC staff marched) would make such an uninformed and presumptuous statement. How do you know anything about the arrangement of La Fiesta, how it's going to sound and will be approached by the design team, it hasn't even been written yet!!!

As far as La Fiesta is concerned, what is the problem with Boston playing it anyway. To be honest, no one in the top 12 has really played it since BD in 1984, and at that was over 20 years ago!! People on this board expect the Madison Scouts to play Malaga and Malaguena every frig year and they're hunky dory, but Boston pulls out a tune that really hasn't been played in the top Div. 1 circuit in a very long time, and they get flamed. Of course you are totally entitled to your opinion, but can we at least have the decency to WAIT and see what the corps is going to do before we completely bash what the design team is trying to do for you people. Yes, YOU. Every step the design team at Boston makes, especially this year (definitely opposed to last year), the staff is thinking about audience reaction and making sure the crowd is entertained while giving a worthwhile product to the judges. You know, to all you people who incessantly complain on here about corps not thinking about the audience, well here's Boston trying to give everything they can back and they get bashed. But whatever, what can you do really.

You're right, but I'm not sure where I said that the corps doesn't think about the audience. True, I haven't heard the show, or the arrangement, or how the staff will approach it, etc. I'm simply saying it will be less difficult arrangement. By the way, Latin is Boston's identity? Umm, OK. People's taste change. The activity has changed (for the better, I might add). Boston's staff, many with whom I marched with, would have laughed this show idea off the field back when we marched, but I didn't say anything about the show design. In fact, it sounds awesome and has tons of potential to be a visual feast. I'm just not a fan of Boston's brass program, their approach to tone quality, releases, phrasing, intonation, arranging, and overall sound quality. That's all. Just an opinion. You can have yours, I can have mine, Boston's staff can have their's, judges can have their's...how boring would DCP be if everyone had the same opinion?

I guess negative opinions about drum corps shouldn't be talked about, like religion or politics. Sorry dcpguy1111, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[dcpguy1111]

You're right, but I'm not sure where I said that the corps doesn't think about the audience. True, I haven't heard the show, or the arrangement, or how the staff will approach it, etc. I'm simply saying it will be less difficult arrangement. By the way, Latin is Boston's identity? Umm, OK. People's taste change. The activity has changed (for the better, I might add). Boston's staff, many with whom I marched with, would have laughed this show idea off the field back when we marched, but I didn't say anything about the show design. In fact, it sounds awesome and has tons of potential to be a visual feast. I'm just not a fan of Boston's brass program, their approach to tone quality, releases, phrasing, intonation, arranging, and overall sound quality. That's all. Just an opinion. You can have yours, I can have mine, Boston's staff can have their's, judges can have their's...how boring would DCP be if everyone had the same opinion?

I guess negative opinions about drum corps shouldn't be talked about, like religion or politics. Sorry dcpguy1111, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Pretty good things are going on with Boston's brass program, it's definitely making a leap forward. You can ask anyone about Wayne Dillon or Chad Pence (or the rest of the staff there right now). What's especially great for the program is the addition of Wayne Dillon, who is very extremely skilled in brass pedagogy and actually isn't afraid of chances (ie: beefing up the book, and teaching it, etc). Considering what he and the others he's brought with him did for Capital Regiment, things should be even better for Boston. I'm sorry you feel the way you do about Boston's brass program.

By the way, I didn't mean to say Latin was Boston's identity, per se, but rather that it can represent their style quite well.

Edited April 5, 2007 by dcpguy1111

[Coaster]

Pretty good things are going on with Boston's brass program, it's definitely making a leap forward. You can ask anyone about Wayne Dillon or Chad Pence (or the rest of the staff there right now). What's especially great for the program is the addition of Wayne Dillon, who is very extremely skilled in brass pedagogy and actually isn't afraid of chances (ie: beefing up the book, and teaching it, etc). Considering what he and the others he's brought with him did for Capital Regiment, things should be even better for Boston. I'm sorry you feel the way you do about Boston's brass program.

By the way, I didn't mean to say Latin was Boston's identity, per se, but rather that it can represent their style quite well.

Sounds promising. Maybe Mr. Dillon can turn them around. They would have finished a lot higher in the last 5 years or so with a solid brass program. If Wayne and Chad did what they did for Cap Reg, they should be excited to be with Boston. I will listen to them in San Antonio with a completely open mind.

[Jared_mello]

Statement reserved for August 19, 2007:

"There's a reason nobody in DCI has pulled out that tune ... see BD 1984. The creative teams of DCI corps today don't have the guts to make a hornline play a beefy book with todays visual demands. 1) If they did it would sound like crap. 2) If they did it would sound like crap.

They will continue to spread the tough parts into the pit and right a bunch of big phat whole notes for the brass. Further, I don't think they know how to teach the modern members how to play with the power necessary to pull off a chart like La Fiesta.

in general, from a big picture view of drum corps, i totally agree. books that difficult arent played anymore in drum corps (with a few close-ish exceptions, occasionally). keep in mind though, as far as respect goes, that as i much as i and many others loved your "generation" of drum corps if you will (not saying that it was that long ago, but relatively to the evolution of the activity....yeah), youve never marched in a show consistantly at the tempos that "we" march at. i would absolutely love to march in a show with an early 90's BD-ish book, but only if i was choosing to march in a corps that lowered its visual standards enough to permit for that to be possible. in any other corps, it probably would be embarassing, but thats only because its more difficult than your perception of drum corps allows for you to see. since im personally more of a "music" person as far as my view of drum corps goes (rather than others who more so love the visual side of the activity), i still do have the same sentiments on the music issue that you have....id like to hear a corps that compromises whatever's necessary visually to go about playing a horn book that difficult in modern times though. (and dont really like corps that do that visually but play the watered down horn books that you refer to, haha.)

that's where youre wrong. what youre calling a "statement" is an assumption. youre listening to a horn book in march. do you realize, with what show deisgn is like now, how much evolving that horn books do go through? its called an "early draft," and i guarantee that, just like most corps now, the music is going to be different at the april camp. its quite possibly just easy right now to see what level the members are at; as a diagnostic tool. im sure you thought that through before you felt inspired to go on dcp and rip them to shreds, though.

[UTAmello]

This is exactly the crap I was talking about on another topic.

Who gives a flying #### if they are playing an allegedly watered down version?! This is drum corps...there's a TON of music out there that has been watered down, but who cares? We loved it! Do you think when corps have taken on The Rite of Spring that they're going to play ALL the notes from the original score? Pshh...well then I sure as hell don't wanna hear it? It's watered down! D@#$ those sops for not taking the 64th note runs that the woodwinds had in the riginal score! I shun this arrangement! Is that good sense? Oh, and BTW. Did ya hear? Phantom and Blue Stars are playing The Firebird Suite! It'll be watered down because blah blah blah.....

I'm open to hearing ANY rendition of ANY tune on the field. Who knows, maybe I'll find the "watered down" version less congested and more entertaining. But that's still a maybe, considering I leave my judgement of music untill AFTER I have heard it. (gee....what a novel concept)

[supersop]

in general, from a big picture view of drum corps, i totally agree. books that difficult arent played anymore in drum corps (with a few close-ish exceptions, occasionally). keep in mind though, as far as respect goes, that as i much as i and many others loved your "generation" of drum corps if you will (not saying that it was that long ago, but relatively to the evolution of the activity....yeah), youve never marched in a show consistantly at the tempos that "we" march at. i would absolutely love to march in a show with an early 90's BD-ish book, but only if i was choosing to march in a corps that lowered its visual standards enough to permit for that to be possible. in any other corps, it probably would be embarassing, but thats only because its more difficult than your perception of drum corps allows for you to see. since im personally more of a "music" person as far as my view of drum corps goes (rather than others who more so love the visual side of the activity), i still do have the same sentiments on the music issue that you have....id like to hear a corps that compromises whatever's necessary visually to go about playing a horn book that difficult in modern times though. (and dont really like corps that do that visually but play the watered down horn books that you refer to, haha.)

that's where youre wrong. what youre calling a "statement" is an assumption. youre listening to a horn book in march. do you realize, with what show deisgn is like now, how much evolving that horn books do go through? its called an "early draft," and i guarantee that, just like most corps now, the music is going to be different at the april camp. its quite possibly just easy right now to see what level the members are at; as a diagnostic tool. im sure you thought that through before you felt inspired to go on dcp and rip them to shreds, though.

True, true and true. The statement, however, is reserved (which means it doesn't hold weight until after the big dance is complete).

I have been with organizations that wrote the monster book up front, used that as the diagnostic tool, then hosed as the season went on. I've been with others that started simple and added on. I've also been with some that morph the entire show into something completely different than what it started out as for the sake of flow, continuity and finessing the package.

Where I continue to admire the past generation is quite simple. The goal was the ULTIMATE book at the highest level of achievement. You might ask how that is different from now. The best way for me to describe it is this ........ The book was always over our heads! It was up to the members/staff to master the seemingly impossible. Yesteryear, ticks were expected because the playing demands were excessive. One was expected to know the limits of the instrument and use each limit and everything in between to achieve musicianship. Errors, ticks, fracks, etc. were endeared and sometimes overlooked because of the quirks of the instrumentation and you knew the performers were GOING FOR IT! Todays lines have a lesser dynamic range and lack the full throated power sound that once was. I also feel there's a lack of depth in the sonority of sound at lower dynamic levels in todays drum corps. The limits have been diminished in order to maintain a higher level of control in execution. Precision is higher as well as technical proficiency. Which is better is a matter of taste, however, those who have experienced both will tell you that modern hornlines don't wrench your gut nor spin your head like they used to.

What constitutes the ultimate book? Again, this is all opinion based. My take is this: Take advantage of every opportunity to change/express tonal color through chord stacking, spreading and compressing which includes full unison or octave voicing for singular voices in the brass choir. Stay true to the original piece as much as possible without hosing the technical passages. If there is a dynamic rhythmic complexity that's meant to be in the brass .. leave it there. Don't hose it out to the pit or mask it with percussive voicing in the melodic battery parts. I could go on .. but my true point is, these elements of the brass book are rarely explored because of the visual demands and the time it would take to clean if it were there. 15+ years ago it almost seemed as if brass staffs were stubborn to hose parts because they felt they were slighting the music and the education of the musicians if they had done so. If that meant a few ticks then so be it. IMO, it's better to hose a ticker than to hose the part entirely.

Where modern day has landed is a huge vat of compromise. Less demand and higher execution by way of a fire hydrant and lowered expectations in composition (not execution). Is this across the boards? NO! Is this the norm? YES!

So here's another way to look at it. Since 1978 only one Jr. Corps other than Boston has done Conquest and that was SCVCadets. Why? Because Conquest=Boston. Nobody does it like them and I highly doubt anyone else ever could. Since 1984 only 3 corps have done La Fiesta in the Jr. ranks, all of which were Div 2/3 corps. What that tells me is a couple of things. 1) Everyone knows that BD owned that chart. 2) BD doesn't even pull it out again because they knew they did it right the first time. Some might say that bringing back Channel One in 02 was great, but I think everyone in BD land knows that 86 was the ultimate. Candide was done twice by the Garfield/CBC Cadets. I might be biased but I think the 90 version was an improvement in musicality over 85. The charts are virtually identical in regards to notes on the page (in fact, we played more notes in 90). What did Boston bring to the table to make it better in 05? Some pieces should just be retired however, I know that's unrealistic.

End thought.... : If you're going to bring back a piece that is a staple of "Ultimate Performances" in drum corps history ..... you'd better do it BETTER! I don't mean better execution .. I mean WRITE IT BETTER. And when you play it ... you better move people to emotion or you'll be resented for even trying.