Stu Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Kamarag said: Monetary transactions don't even need to occur for there to be a violation. True, money does not need to change hands to violate the educational exemption. But it was money, and lots of it, being generated a number of years ago by national contests like MBA (the old name for BOA) that caught the attention of publishers and composers. It was during that time period in which Copyright owners began to really clamp down on the abuse which permeated, and still permeates, the highly competitive scholastic marching band market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Mariah Carey's Agent announced today that any DCI Corps that wants to utilize her lip sync rights for the 2017 season can get a 50% reduction on her standard pricing if purchased by April 1st. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) On 12/31/2016 at 4:44 PM, Stu said: True, money does not need to change hands to violate the educational exemption. But it was money, and lots of it, being generated a number of years ago by national contests like MBA (the old name for BOA) that caught the attention of publishers and composers. It was during that time period in which Copyright owners began to really clamp down on the abuse which permeated, and still permeates, the highly competitive scholastic marching band market. I'm not a lawyer, but it looks to me that money changing hands is mentioned specifically in the education exemption (Title 17 Section 110). Schools can hold a concert and charge a fee as long as the fee goes entirely to non-profits: Quote ... the proceeds, after deducting the reasonable costs of producing the performance, are used exclusively for educational, religious, or charitable purposes and not for private financial gain, except where the copyright owner has served notice of objection to the performance under the following conditions: ... --- End Of Quote --- (The system won't let me pull this out and put it after the quote for some reason) So the proceeds goes entirely into a public school budget. That's why I'm always asking for clarification on this. Maybe some other part of the law nullifies this, but obviously we can't take Tresona's and the copyright holders word for it. You're right though that there is little mention of media (the law was made in 1971 or thereabouts). I was just referring to the choir issue mentioned in the OP. If Tresona appeals this and loses, perhaps DCI corps would no longer have to pay anything to play whatever they want, but DCI would presumably still pay as now for media. Dunno. I say Tresona will drop it anyway. Edited January 2, 2017 by Pete Freedman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 50 minutes ago, Pete Freedman said: I'm not a lawyer, but it looks to me that money changing hands is mentioned specifically in the education exemption (Title 17 Section 110). Schools can hold a concert and charge a fee as long as the fee goes entirely to non-profits: I interact with Copyright attorneys from BMI, ASCAP, Disney, etc... and here is what they have informed me: The educational exemption relates specifically to the educational aspects of instruction (as in it is used solely for the purpose of classroom type teaching) and is limited in the amount of material that can be arranged (as in only a small portion of the entire work can be copied/arranged for that instructional purpose). However, performing a customized arranged piece of Copyrighted material for 'public consumption' without permission from the Copyright Holder, whether admission is charged or not, whether the arranger was paid or not, whether the performance is just for the edification of the parents or not, does not fall under the educational exemption. Moreover, band contests whether local, regional, or national like BOA are all far, far, far, far removed from the educational classroom exemption. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 On 1/2/2017 at 3:24 AM, Stu said: I interact with Copyright attorneys from BMI, ASCAP, Disney, etc... and here is what they have informed me: The educational exemption relates specifically to the educational aspects of instruction (as in it is used solely for the purpose of classroom type teaching) and is limited in the amount of material that can be arranged (as in only a small portion of the entire work can be copied/arranged for that instructional purpose). However, performing a customized arranged piece of Copyrighted material for 'public consumption' without permission from the Copyright Holder, whether admission is charged or not, whether the arranger was paid or not, whether the performance is just for the edification of the parents or not, does not fall under the educational exemption. Moreover, band contests whether local, regional, or national like BOA are all far, far, far, far removed from the educational classroom exemption. I don't think Pete is disputing that this is the way the laws are currently interpreted. I think his point is that the current interpretation may be flawed. IMHO using attorneys from BMI, ASCAP, and Disney as your supporting cast actually lends strength to his argument. Furthermore your dismissal of band contests as non-educational instruction is pretty myopic. I'd suggest those contests are all about educating the students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddawg Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 The education exemption is very, very narrow. The brief summary from Stu's attorney contacts is on the right path. From the perspective of the education exemption, band contests are absolutely outside the scope, and I cannot imagine that Stu is referencing band contests in any manner other than how they relate to that exemption. Regardless of how band contests fit into music educators' pedagogical efforts, band contests (and the media produced at, with, or associated with such contests) are not part of the narrow education exemption detailed in the legislative history of the Copyright Act. Yes, I posted for the first time in over 2 years for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 4 hours ago, corpsband said: I don't think Pete is disputing that this is the way the laws are currently interpreted. I think his point is that the current interpretation may be flawed. IMHO using attorneys from BMI, ASCAP, and Disney as your supporting cast actually lends strength to his argument. Furthermore your dismissal of band contests as non-educational instruction is pretty myopic. I'd suggest those contests are all about educating the students. Read the actual Copyright Law concerning this subject; it is very specific without any 'interpretation' required on what constitutes Educational Exemption. It only applies to a Classroom type atmosphere, and only a very small portion of the Copyrighted material can be copied/arranged for that educational setting. As as for contests like BOA being 'educational': for that reasoning to fly the term 'educational classroom' would also have to be applied to many other activities like the NCAA Football Local Games and Bowl Games where coaches, ummmm, 'teach/instruct' and the players/fans are, ummmm, 'educated' on the finer aspects of PE That is ludicrous; Band contests, just like Football Contests, are 'public performances' not Educational Classwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 On 12/26/2016 at 8:48 PM, Eleran said: Yes, but I was replying to the statement that " this music is being performed by a public educational institution and should have always been fair use." Under that rationale, no school would need to purchase the written parts at all (which is accompanied by a performance license), but would be able to photocopy parts from a music library (or share them between directors) and play for free under the guise of fair use. Your pm box is full. I just got an email from his Mom and am reading in-between the lines to conclude: The person you asked me about will celebrate his birthday at home in the Midwest before heading back to college back East the next day. Guess the person won't be at the camp weekend then; his folks aren't really made of money zipping him back and forth across the country Conclusion: empty your DCP mail box so we don't have everyone thinking we are more crazy than they already know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleran Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 14 minutes ago, xandandl said: Your pm box is full. I just got an email from his Mom and am reading in-between the lines to conclude: The person you asked me about will celebrate his birthday at home in the Midwest before heading back to college back East the next day. Guess the person won't be at the camp weekend then; his folks aren't really made of money zipping him back and forth across the country Conclusion: empty your DCP mail box so we don't have everyone thinking we are more crazy than they already know. Must be something with the new software, because I only have 4 email conversations total in my Inbox ("Used 2% storage"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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