BDCorno Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 16 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said: There was plenty of visual demand in BD's show, but to my tastes, not as much visual interest as in several other corps' shows. (Lots of expert work on individual details that only really work in close up, but I'm more interested in the "big picture".) I do think that there is much merit in hostrauser's post from Friday about most or all corps (not just BD, not by a long shot) are suffering from what he termed "segmentation". But BD is doing just what the sheets call for, and if other corps' staff are upset about it (who says they are? and not just some fans?), they have only themselves to blame, for either not having pushed for different sheets before, for not realizing what the sheets actually say, or for not attempting to do what BD does. For example, why did Bluecoats march a lot more this year than they did last year when they won if they knew that more marching would probably hurt their score? If it was because that's just what they wanted to do, it's all good, but if it's because they thought that's what would impress the judges, then probably they need to rethink. But shows generally would be better, or more enjoyable (not that there wasn't plenty to enjoy in BD's show--I cannot get this year's ballad out of my head; it's been an earworm for me all day), if hostrauser's ideas were heeded. In my opinion. Mind you, BD surely would still win most of the time; they'd just do it differently than they do it now. What do the sheets say? Seriously, I'd like to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, MikeRapp said: When you are at the top, people are far more critical of you. It's true in every competitive activity. Blue Stars may do the same exact thing Blue Devils did, but there isn't as much if any concern about how their shows or performances impact the genre. Bllue Devils have enormous political power in DCI. They are the largest, most financially stable, most successful, and most articulate drum corps organization in the world. What they do has immediate and long lasting impact on what the entire activity deems to be the standard, or the norm. When Bluecoats did Kinetic Noise, it was controversial. But when they won the gold with Down Side Up, with the same philosophy and design concept, the entire activity took notice. Because when the dci judges hand you the gold medal, that says this is what every corps should aspire to do and be. It does have ramifications for every corps. I doubt Scott Chandler is surprised by any of the criticism of his shows. He probably would agree with most all of them. He makes clear and important design choices, and lives with the results. Just as many though not all corps do. He can deal with the criticisms, it literally comes with the territory, and the fans should deal with it as well. Excellent points, all. As controversial as Kinetic Noise was, it's my #1 played DCI recording. Loved that show musically. Coats '17 will be up on that list as well. It's clear that many are struggling with the Metamorph(osis) of drum corps. Familiar techniques such as "pedestrian" (don't lose your #### people, not discounting it, just describing it) marching from spot to spot has been replaced in many instances by alternative "marching" techniques that take a trained (or at least one that looks a little bit) eye to notice and appreciate. Making spurious complaints about it won't change this fact, and judges won't suddenly stop rewarding that. Amplification is another complaint...and while I do note that many corps are, and will struggle to deploy and refine that, it's not going away. How about a list of shows that wouldn't have ever seen the field if not for electronics? I'm sure most of the haters will find more than one that is on their favorites list: Metamorph - BD '17 Ouroboros - SCV '17 Jagged Line - Bluecoats '17 Down Side Up - Bluecoats '16 Relentless - Crown '16 Ink - BD '15 Kinetic Noise - Bluecoats '15 Felliniesque - BD '14 Tilt - Bluecoats '14 Out of this World - Crown '14 E=mc2 - Crown '13 OK, there are a few for you. It's an evolving activity, and while there will always be preferences, at least acknowledge the changes, learn to appreciate/understand the new paradigm visually and musically, and you'll enjoy life and DCI a lot more. BD's ballad, SCV's small ensemble that carried their program, Pink Floyd - Coats '16, Crown '17, Boston '17, Tilt pitch bend, Crown '13 show...I can go on and on. Do some of you think that DCI is somehow poorer or less "pure" because music and show styles allowed by technology have flourished? That the visual productions and techniques aren't expanding what is possible? If you do, then maybe DCI is not for you. If that makes you miserable, no amount of complaining will change that...so for you and your health and your attitude, please...go away. Otherwise, get up to speed on all this. Legit criticism without all the 'that isn't marching' or 'all they do is stand and play' (they all do) background noise will make it better for all of us. Edited August 14, 2017 by BDCorno Personal grammar/spelling police work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 13 minutes ago, BDCorno said: How about a list of shows that wouldn't have ever seen the field if not for electronics? I'm sure most of the haters will find more than one that is on their favorites list: Metamorph - BD '17 Ouroboros - SCV '17 Jagged Line - Bluecoats '17 Down Side Up - Bluecoats '16 Relentless - Crown '16 Ink - BD '15 Kinetic Noise - Bluecoats '15 Felliniesque - BD '14 Tilt - Bluecoats '14 Out of this World - Crown '14 E=mc2 - Crown '13 I'm not convinced that good shows using the music of those productions couldn't have been created without A&E (or at least with E). Different? Sure. Maybe not as good in a few cases. But if the argument is that BD isn't good enough to design a winning show without those extras, how does that fly in this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 51 minutes ago, BDCorno said: What do the sheets say? Seriously, I'd like to know. I don't have a link to the most recently publicized version handy, but someone else probably does. Do read hostrauser's thread, if you haven't yet. Good thoughts there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said: I'm not convinced that good shows using the music of those productions couldn't have been created without A&E (or at least with E). Different? Sure. Maybe not as good in a few cases. But if the argument is that BD isn't good enough to design a winning show without those extras, how does that fly in this thread? That's not the argument at all. Just pointing out that these new techniques, tools and methods are reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said: I don't have a link to the most recently publicized version handy, but someone else probably does. Do read hostrauser's thread, if you haven't yet. Good thoughts there. Yeah, would like to see them. DCI isn't very forthcoming with them, but as a longtime judge, I'm interested. Probably very close to the WGI sheets, I'm sure. I'll check it out on that thread. Edited August 14, 2017 by BDCorno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 19 minutes ago, BDCorno said: It's an evolving activity Many artforms evolve. Theater, for instance. But I feel comfortable saying that Shakespeare is superior to anyone who wrote plays in the 20th century. (At least in English; I don't know much about foreign-language drama.) Not that I demand that modern playwrights imitate Shakespeare. Likewise when the drum corps historians of 2117 look back, they may argue that the activity took a wrong turn in the early 2000s, and didn't recover until they dropped electronics circa 2030. Who knows? But we should be open to the possibility that we're on the wrong road. That also happens in many artforms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, BDCorno said: Yeah, would like to see them. DCI isn't very forthcoming with them, but as a longtime judge, I'm interested. Probably very close to the WGI sheets, I'm sure. I'll check it out on that thread. People have linked to them before. Probably the right combination of search terms ("sheets" + "engagement" + "content"?) will would turn up a post with the link. Not the latest versions, I think, but ones that aren't very different from them--from around the time Cesario stepped in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 16 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said: People have linked to them before. Probably the right combination of search terms ("sheets" + "engagement" + "content"?) will would turn up a post with the link. Not the latest versions, I think, but ones that aren't very different from them--from around the time Cesario stepped in. They've gotten so generalized, it's basically a "throw a number at it" approach. I'm sure the system will eventually morph to ten judges that just give a number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 12 minutes ago, BDCorno said: I'm sure the system will eventually morph to ten judges that just give a number. Синие дьяволы снова побеждают. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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