Dale Bari

Well, since the statute of limitations has run out, your investigation is moot! I can now reveal all ... but I won't. Suffice it to say, it was a clandestine plot involving Oliver North, G. Gordon Liddy, OJ Simpson, Agent Mulder, and Lee Harvey Oswald. We all met in John Wilkes Booth's barn behind a grassy knoll to go over our assignments and afterward we downed shots of "Magic Bullet" whiskey - of course, that's all in theory. The truth? Well, all I can say is what Col. Nathan R. Jessup said.

I can verify that statement's veracity. In 2003, I resembled that statement. I remember back on RAMD in 2001 or 2002 dueling with TA about the Brigs' winning streak. I reminded him that the streak would eventually end. (The ironic thing is, I was a Brig when it happened.) The back-and-forth was pretty heated at moments. In the same vein, the Bucs' streak will end sometime too. In the meantime, as hard as it can be, some of their supporters may be forgiven for their insufferableness. My heart wants to see the Statesmen pull out a win this weekend, but I highly doubt that will happen. I am confidently predicting another Bucs' win, but I won't feel broken up if I'm proven wrong. The most important thing is, the best corps should win.

Wait .... Let me guess .... Ghost Riders hired Bill Hoyt as a ringer! (Or did Nick steal a GR uni?) [scene: 2002 Rochester Crusaders' winter rehearsal, in cafeteria at School #8. DA asks, "Bill, what kind of horn player are you?" Bill answers, "Tremendous, Donny!" The custodian is still cleaning up jawbone fragments from the floor.]

Only so long as TA can imitate Ron's imitation of "Macho Man" Randy Savage. But, the real question is: Will TA go the "full monty" and shave his head, or will he just wear a "bald cap"?

I have now seen Brigs and Bush. They are small, but with well-designed shows. The Renegades, having not been against anyone else in DCA, are complete unknowns. However, unless everything that I have heard is pure hype (and this IS DCP, after all), I have a hard time believing that Renegades, being larger & more powerful, will finish behind Bush and Brigs. If Renegades execute well, it will be no contest. "Derived Achievement" will only carry one so far... The rest of your picks are plausible, individually. You're probably within a place on most of them. But then, the seeding (slotting?) is affecting all predictions. My picks (now having seen more corps): 12 Alliance (chance: 60% - could be MCL 30% or Kilties 10%) 11 Kilties (50% - Cru 40% or Alliance 10%) ------------------------------------------------------- 10 Crusaders (50% - Kilties 40% or Alliance 10%) 9 Corps Vets (80% - Cru 10% or Bush 10%) 8 Bushwackers (60% - CV 20%, Brigs 15%, or Renegades 5%) 7 Brigadiers (50% - Bush 30%, Renegades 15%, or CV 5%) 6 Renegades (80% - Brigs 10%, Bush 8%, or MBI 2%) 5 Minnesota Brass (50% - Renegades 30% or Hurcs 20%) 4 Hurricanes (70% - MBI 29% or Cabs 1%) 3 Caballeros (80% - MBI 15% or ES 5%) 2 Statesmen (95% - Cabs 4% or Bucs 1%) 1 Buccaneers (99% - ES 1%)

I want to expand upon my own point a bit: Since 0.1 counts differently (GE 0.1=0.1, Music 0.1=.0375, Visual 0.1=0.05), depending on which caption is being discussed, it is possible for a 10th place corps to score over 90, but it is unlikely. Let's try the simplest situation, where a corps places 10th in every sub-caption. That's a 18.0 on every sheet. So the Visual score is 27.000, Music score is 27.000, and GE is 36.000. The total score is 90.00, right on the button. If a 10th place corps can improve its performance on the GE sheets, but loses ground in the Music captions, such that its average finish in each sub-caption remains 10th (and therefore, presumably, its overall placement). So, the corps is 10th in every Visual sub-caption (9.0), 11th in every Music one (8.9), and 9th in every GE one (9.1). Then, its scores would look like this: Visual - 27.000; Music - 26.700; GE - 36.400; Total - 90.100. Obviously, there are millions of permutations, but I think that points out the sheer difficulty of 10th getting a 90. If that happens, the probability of the winner getting above a 99 is greatly enhanced. In an unrelated (but still related) note: Only twice in 41 years (no Prelims in '65 & '66) has DCA had corps at the top switch places from Prelims to Finals (meaning a corps that placed first in Prelims did not place first at Finals) - 1986 (Bush 3rd to 1st, SCA 1st to 2nd, Cabs 1st to 3rd) and 1996 (Westshoremen 2nd to 1st, Cabs 1st to 2nd).

Tom P. is right on about the numbers management. Discounting sub-caption ties (which, as Tom noted, are highly discouraged), if every judge gave the 1st place corps 9.9, that means 10th place gets 9.0. Unless the 10th place corps places much better than 10th in the visual and GE areas (which are divided less than the music captions), it is unlikely that 10th can score over 90. Look at it this way: Last year, 22 corps competed in Prelims. 22nd scored 74.600, and 1st scored a 97.388. 10th, as noted, was 87.838. The median was between the 11th and 12th place corps, which put the median score at 84.288. The midpoint of the score range was 85.994, and the average score was 85.904, which are almost identical. So, the judges left a little more room at the top than required. This fits the judges' needs, as they have to leave room, just in case. This year there are 24 corps in prelims (with the same 10 corps seeded from 1 - 10 as finished Top 10 last season). Therefore, the extra 2 will be nearer the bottom, ie on earlier in the contest. This may have the effect of pushing up scores, IF the judges don't start lower than they did last year. With the idea that scores need to show a progression over the season, that possibility is minimal. So, the extra corps exerting upward pressure on numbers cancels the downward pressure necessary to prevent a logjam at the top. So again, the chance of a 90 for 10th at Prelims is small. OK, so try these stats on for size: Since 1987 (the first year of buildup captions in DCA), the 10th place score has exhibited a small and uneven upward trend. In the 20 years after 1987, the score has gone up from the previous year 12 times (and down 8 times). It has gone up in 2 consecutive years 3 times (89/90, 96/97, 06/07) and 4 consecutive years once (99/00/01/02). It has gone down in 2 consecutive years once (93/94). The greatest one-year bump was 91-92 (+7.200). The greatest one-year drop was from 90-91 (-6.000). (That makes one wonder how low the scores were in 1991.) The highest three 10th place scores were: 2007 (87.838), 1992 (87.600), and 2006 (87.250). The lowest three were: 1988 (79.900), 1991 (80.400), and 1995 (81.000). The three closest years, 10th to 1st, were: 1992 (-9.300), 2007 (-9.550), and 1990 & 2002 (tied, -9.900) The three farthest years, 10th to 1st, were: 1995 (-14.900), 1994 (-14.600), and 1991 (-14.500). The 10th place score has increased the last 2 years. Only twice in 20 years has the 10th place score gone up again after increasing the 2 prior years (2001 & 2002). For 10th place to score a 90 this season, the 10th place score must increase at least 2.162. That has happened 6 times in 20 years. And THAT means the 1st place score would have to push above 99, as no 10th place corps has ever been less than 9.300 from 1st. Just stating some facts. Make of them what you will.

I posted this in another thread, but I think it bears repeating here: For the first time since 1994, I will not be attending DCA Finals. The summer has brought more than its share of trials for us, not to mention traveling is getting too expensive. The trip is too much to ask of our 13.5 month olds. We will miss everyone and the shows immensely. So, Tamm, Thomas, Elizabeth & I wish all the corps good luck in Roch-cha-cha. We hope everyone going via air and long distance have safe travels. May all of the weather be clear & calm, and may all performers, whether competitive or alumni, on the field or in I&E, play/spin/dance/march their absolute best ever! We reserve our heartiest wishes for those folks who finish second, 11th (or 5th if Class A), and last. Congrats to Steve Cooley and the other WDCHOF inductees. Let's hope DCA Championships 2008 is entertaining, rewarding, and memorable for everyone involved.

For the first time since 1994, I will not be attending DCA Finals. The summer has brought more than its share of trials for us, not to mention traveling is getting too expensive. So, Tamm, Thomas, Elizabeth & I wish all the corps good luck in Roch-cha-cha. We hope everyone going via air and long distance have safe travels. May all of the weather be clear & calm, and may all performers, whether competitive or alumni, on the field or in I&E, play/spin/dance/march their absolute best ever! We reserve our heartiest wishes for those folks who finish second, 11th (or 5th if Class A), and last. Congrats to Steve Cooley and the other WDCHOF inductees. Let's hope DCA Championships 2008 is entertaining, rewarding, and memorable for everyone involved.

I don't know about hats, but I was there in Madison '99 when DA threw his sunglasses at us from the podium - during the show, no less! THEN we got "The Look" (which was more like a glare). Ahhhh, the memories....

As a native to Pittsburgh, I can say that there is probably no stadium that is suitable. Heinz Field is too big (and expensive too I'd guess), and there's no guarantee that the Steelers wouldn't comandeer the stadium. In my mind, there is nowhere that has the right combination of location, size, easy access and parking. Which is not to say that someone with extra knowledge and creativity could come up with one, but it is unlikely. The best place I can think of still is probably not large enough for minimum 7,000 fans (nor do I think that 20-something corps could meet) - and that is where the recent DCI shows have been held (and DCA shows 20 years ago): Baldwin-Whitehall HS. To me, the worst aspect about it is ease of access; PA-51 is too congested for out-of-towners to get to easily.

We all agree that DCA's resources are limited. But are they so limited that DCA cannot create promotional materials (website, DVD, brochure) to be distributed to potential cities that have been named here (and others) so that they become aware of DCA? How hard would it be to use the info that the Rochester committee has developed that proves in concrete terms the economic benefit that can accrue to the area that hosts DCA Championships? I agree with John's point about "marketing your product". (I was merely making a joke about the "submit a bid".) I myself working from afar cannot get anyone in the Akron area to "submit a bid", but DCA trying to market itself to these mid-major cities might. With the experience of people like Allen, DCA should be able to provide the technical expertise to consult with groups who are trying to put together packages that might seriously move DCA into a new and potentially lucrative area that will satisfy better the needs of corps further away from the NE, without putting the NE corps into major financial holes for travelling. Given a sure thing in the same old areas versus a riskier move into an untried, untested market, DCA will stay with the safe choice. But, the circuit can help itself out by providing all the technical assistance to areas that have greater risk/reward scenarios. And enhancing its own marketing skills by developing slick, informative promotional materials can only help DCA in the long-term.

It's a little late for this season, but at every show for which Fran announces, all the DCPers (and anyone else who can be recruited) should arrive in "Fran shirts" and sit together. We could call it the "Fran Fan" section.

That (along with a host of other reasons) is why I think that the Rubber Bowl in Akron would be perfect for 2010 on. The Univ of Akron is finishing a brand new stadium for their football team, so no conflict with the college games. It is a classic bowl stadium that would probably seat 12,000 concert side, but would not dwarf the DCA crowd like a Soldier Field or other NFL-sized venue. It is in a decent-sized city, near a larger city (Cleveland), so it has a decent amount of hotels and schools for the corps and their fans, as well as near the big airport for folks flying in. It's not a huge place that would sniff at hosting DCA, and would be as appreciative as Rochester is at getting the tourism $. And, it's a little closer to the Midwest and South corps without being too far away from the NE fans. All we need to do is find someone there who wants to "submit a bid".

[ed note: Sorry this is late. In the very early AM Tuesday, someone in another apartment above ours caused a major (several gallons per minute) leak in a hot water pipe. I spent almost two hours bailing water from our bathroom as it poured out of our collapsed ceiling. We're staying at a friend's house while contractors replace the ceiling in 5 rooms and the carpet in the hallway and kids' bedroom.] With two toddlers to keep an eye on, as well as the shows going on, I don’t take notes, so all in this review comes from my memory. If I misstate something, I apologize now, in advance. I’m a brass player, as well as a visual tech-type, so my comments come from that perspective. Adjust yours accordingly. The weather was simply perfect, clear with decent humidity and moderately warm in the afternoon cooling to comfortable in the evening with a light breeze by the end of retreat. As others have said, if only we could bottle it and take it to Rochester at the end of next week. Scranton HS stadium is a standard field with a track around the artificial turf, enclosed by a gate. The metal stands provided a moderately high/steep view of the gridiron. We sat in the front row of the stadium, in the handicapped seating area just to the right of center, just about the 40 yard-line. (Side 2 in the old parlance.) The concert side (home stands) face to the east, so the late summer sun disappeared behind the stands well before show time. The moon eventually rose from behind the opposite stands sometime after Bucs (3rd corps on) took the field. We saw so many spectators whom we knew from various corps, so it seemed like it may have been a veteran drum corps crowd, but then there were many folks around us who were very casual fans, not up on the latest goings-on in DCA. Some were there to see friends/family members in one corps or another, and a couple even used the dreaded “b” word when talking about the corps. One more note: Parking was not great, we arrived at 7:00, and the lot next to the stadium was very full. A long line of patrons were waiting to buy Gen Admission tickets. The gravel/grass lot on the opposite corner (where Empire Statesmen’s busses and trucks were parked all day) was filled up, and the small shopping center across Olive St from Statesmen and across Providence St from the stadium also was filling up. Next year, we’re making sure we get there earlier. Hurricanes (Seymour, CT) took the field first. We had seen them earlier in the season at Manassas Park, VA. I have been heavily on this corps’ bandwagon, and I expected a lot from them. Maybe it was the draw, maybe it was them still trying to fill out spots with members who were not familiar with the show yet. Whatever the cause, the Hurcs were rather surprisingly ragged. Still lots of horn bells wavering around, missed step-offs, and fracked attacks/releases. I like how the corps sets up in the “East” end zone – Audience Right (Side 2), and the opening trumpet solo in the backfield corner on the opposite goal line (Side 1) “calls” the corps to journey “West”. The music (mostly Aaron Copland, or so it seemed) fits the theme like a glove. The drill moves pretty fast, and is designed highly effectively. Overall, it allows the Hurcs to show off their improved marching program, despite the individual errors noted above. The guard is still fantastic, winning the trophy for this contest. Between the brass and percussion, I thought the percussion section was slightly stronger. The mid-40’s brass line projected pretty well. (My daughter slept through being put in the stroller from the van and wheeled into the stadium, with everyone talking all around her – but woke up instantly when the Hurcs hit their first impact.) Theirs is a well-designed, mostly well-executed routine, that gets the audience up on its feet, esp “Magnificent 7” at the end. Crusaders (Rochester, NY) came next. This was our first viewing. The Russian theme is a repeat from last year, and some music was reprised (notably, “Pictures at an Exhibition”). The show starts off with Theresa Lacroix playing a very nice solo on euph (with quotes from “Russian Easter Overture”?) that turns into a nice rendition of “Russian Christmas Music” that’s rather reminiscent of what Santa Clara did many years ago. The smallish brass line (mid-30’s, very bottom heavy) handled the music quite well. The perc section is definitely the mainstay of this corps. The guard isn’t as large or as good as last year. The brass line’s sound is better this year than last, and the corps overall has more confidence. But, their ability to perform to the nth degree, like the bigger corps, is still lacking. They are a young group still, and may not be ready to move up against more veteran corps. Musically, the program ebbs and flows very well. I have a penchant for music of the Russian masters (or “Russian-like” in the case of Alfred Reed’s “RMC” that opens the show), so it wears well, even though there has been many iterations of this style. The Crusaders evoke the Phantom Regiment’s style, both in music and in visual, complete with the “third-position” of the feet, ie, left heel placed in the right in-step, with about 30 degrees angle between the directions of their respective toes. My main problem with the show is the drill. The music is fast and furious at the end, yet the drill goes nowhere – and slowly at that. Oh, the corps, brass esp, is staged well, but the expected motion is missing. The Buccaneers (Reading, PA) took the field in a swaggering fashion, as befits the 3-in-a-row defending champions. This was our second helping of their “Pursuit of Joy” program. Despite outscoring their closest competitor by nearly 2 points, the Bucs did not seem as invincible as I expected. Don’t get me wrong, they deserved to win, and it was clear, yet when I looked closely at smaller details, they weren’t as perfectly polished as I expected them to be. I noted a few moments of dirt here and there, when compared to other corps, I thought that maybe the Bucs were losing their edge. (OTOH, I was holding up Bucs’ WEAK moments against the other corps’ STRONG moments, and once that adjustment gets made, all falls back into place.) For me, the highlights of the show are the Canon in D theme variations in the opener, and the gorgeous “Nessun Dorma”, complete with Walt Street solo on bari to start. This brass line (high-50’s) is strong and sharp, and they sink their collective teeth into this meaty music with gusto. The percussion section gives good account of itself, never giving the competition any quarter. The guard is very good, but is one notch below the excellence of the rest of the corps. The drill flows well, and the simple-but-effective touches, like the company front in “Ode to Joy” that starts pushing in unison (on the oblique, no less) but finishes by filling in with staggered halts, prove that you don’t have to run around the field to impress. And, they are impressive indeed. It’s most likely that this corps will be the last one playing on the field at Finals in two weekends, and even if not, that impressive feeling will never go away. The Brigadiers (Syracuse, NY) had to follow a corps that has been undefeated for several seasons, but the Brigs still have some people around who know that feels like. This program, unlike last years’ for them, gives the impression that the Brigadiers are looking to go in a new direction. (Yet, it is still a jazz-based program.) The “Reflexions” theme was not highly evident to me, but that may just take more viewings. This corps has a brass line numbering in the low-30’s (and was just about tied with Bushwackers for the smallest of the evening). The word I’d use to describe this corps is “Uneven”. The talent level from end to end varies greatly, and their performance quality this evening was also uneven. The trumpets had very brilliant moments. (Even better than Bucs’ trumpets.) But then, they fell off from that level. And so it would go, if I went from section to section. Overall, their performance was enjoyable, and later, at retreat, I thought that they might've done enough to best the Bushwackers. Next up was the Caballeros (Hawthorne, NJ). Based upon the way they attacked their show, I think they had finally had enough of getting bested by Hurcs and Statesmen. It seemed like they showed up, put the red laser-dot right on their competitors’ foreheads, and took their best shots at them. The Cabs were en fuego right from the start, and didn’t let up the entire performance. The brass line (low-50’s) put on a powerful show, the highlight being, of course, “Malaguena”. Throughout, the percussion was strong too. The guard, however, was not characteristic of Cabs’ usual visual ensembles; they were good, just not as good as I've come to expect. The drill featured lots of motion, and the corps’ marching was as aggressive as the music. Unfortunately for you Bushwacker fans reading this, fate was not kind. During Cabs’ show, my son tripped on the concrete and gave himself a big knot right in the center of his forehead. I was down at the concession stand getting ice for him while Bush was performing. I only got to see the last minute of the show from the tunnel. Bushwackers (Harrison, NJ) always choose themes that are quirky, different from what everyone else is doing. This year’s “Gypsodic” theme fits right into that tradition. Tammy watched it and said that Bush needed about 20 more brass players (low-30’s) and definitely a whole lot less notes. I tried to explain that maybe the “derived achievement” was what Bush was aiming for, but she didn’t buy it. Bush always attempts difficult programs, so this show apparently also fits that tradition as well. Tammy did tell me about the moment when the Bush guard holds different poses that test their balance. She said she was esp impressed by one woman who stood on her head with her limbs pointing in various directions. One thing that could’ve been considered fascinating/annoying (depending on your POV – count me leaning slightly toward annoyed) is the gypsy bells draped around the guard’s uniform. Hearing them as Bush exited the field at retreat was, shall we say, “hypnotic.” And, it most definitely could be called “Gypsodic”. The final corps of the evening was the Empire Statesmen (Rochester, NY). Being recent members there, Tamm & I stopped at their rehearsal for a little bit prior to the show. Our last viewing of the corps was back in March at a winter indoor performance, so we wanted to see how they were doing. With that disclaimer out of the way, I can say that, based on the performance they gave that night, the corps is doing very well, thank you. Since this is Empire’s 25th (Silver) Anniversary season, the corps has switched from wearing black scarves on the uniform to silver, iridescent ones, and they catch the light very well. Maybe it’s due to fact that they don’t wear hats, maybe it’s my own built-in bias, and maybe it’s just plain true: the Statesmen wore a look of determination that no one else had that night. It certainly showed in their performance. There were moments where I thought they moved better than Bucs. There was a crispness in their visual performance that I hadn’t seen in them since 2004. The mid-50s brass line was rock solid. The percussion was surprisingly competitive with Cabs and Bucs, but the guard is a real weakness. The show started off with much energy, and it struck all the right nostalgic chords one expects of a true retrospective anniversary program. The section where “My Way” bookends snippets of past shows (’97 – Miss Saigon, ’04 – City of Angels) was very well-done, but the energy seemed to lag a bit in the ’98 – “WSS” section. The drum feature (“Officer Krupke”?) with the brass line blowing whistles was something different. I’m not sure what it means, but the baritone soloist playing “American” is actually Canadian. (I’m glad David O. is able to make the “conversion from metric” sound great.) Like many others, I wondered in the back of my mind if a “tank” would make an appearance during the “Salute to the Services” section of the closer. Thankfully, it didn’t, but a giant American-style flag did, along with tons of CO2. (I’m happy to report this flag stayed intact.) I never marched there when Mr. B ran the corps, but when his likeness appears at the end of the show, I think that is a very fitting reminder of the person who was responsible for the corps and its inimitable style. Call me biased, but Empire Statesmen had the hands-down, best ending of the evening, and a great way to close out the show. It’s theoretically possible for someone to catch the Bucs. With Statesmen taking 2nd, they are most likely nominated for the job. But, since the gap is so small between them, Cabs, and Hurcs, the odds are way better that they all beat each other up, and Bucs steam on to another win. In the past, a two point gap was not insurmountable, but nowadays all it confirms to me is Bucs have another championship and undefeated season in the bag. As for my personal take from Scranton, the judges got all the placements correct, I would’ve had a slightly larger gap between ES/Cabs & Hurcs, less of a gap from Bucs to ES. The Bush/Brigs race was tight like I expected coming in. Cru showed they might have a decent grip on 10th place, but we East Coasters don’t know how good Kilties really are. All in all, it was a great night of drum corps.

This past weekend, for the last two seasons, there was one east show, 2 south shows, and 2 MN shows. In 2006, there were no south shows, but MCL did trek to MN. Here's how the results: Week 9 2006 - 2007 - 2008 Bucs - 92.788 - 92.588 - 93.238 ES - 92.500 - 92.125 - 91.425 MBI - 89.244 - 90.725 - 90.451 CV - n/a - 86.744 - 85.319 Kilties - 82.119 - 83.800 - 84.063 Cru - 76.125 - 83.775 - 82.375 MCL - 71.069 - 80.175 - 80.619 Alliance - n/a - 76.750 - 82.044 Note: Where there were 2 shows for the weekend, the scores above reflect the average. Also, I ignored penalties – we can’t predict a penalty in the future, so I try to use scores actually earned from the judges. I included the other corps for reference. And here's how Prelims turned for the above corps for 06 & 07: Prelims - 2006 (place) - 2007 (place) Bucs - 97.275 (1) - 97.388 (1) ES - 96.963 (2) - 95.563 (3) MBI - 92.500 (5) - 92.650 (6) CV - 87.363 (9) - 88.950 (9) Cru - 82.438 (12) - 87.838 (10) MCL - 80.613 (13) - 84.838 (11) Kilties - 84.213 (11) - 81.888 (15) Alliance - 73.463 (22) - 81.850 (17) Notice that in 2007 for this weekend, CV was 3 points up on Cru (in different shows). In Prelims, CV beat Cru by 1.1. Also notice, in 2006 for this weekend, Kilties were 6 points up on Cru (in different shows). In Prelims, Kilties beat Cru by not quite 2 points. In 2006, MBI was about 2.5 behind ES and Bucs; at Prelims, about 4. In 2007, MBI down about 1.75, but at Prelims 3/4.5. In 2006, MCL was 6 behind Cru, but at Prelims, it was less than 2. In 2007, a slightly different story: Week 9, MCL (-3.6); Prelims MCL (-3.6). What this says is that the non-NE corps probably need to build up a cushion before coming to Prelims. Now, Kilties had a major tear in their 2007 Prelims show, but they were basically tied with Cru in the Week 9 scores, and then fell 6 points behind them. Without the tear, would they still have been virtually tied with Cru? Probably not. So, the questions are: Does Kilties have enough cushion over Cru? Alliance is around 0.3 behind Cru - is that close enough for the judges to give them a shot, if Alliance can take it? Does MCL have enough gas in the tank for a run at Finals? Of this bunch, Cru is a defending Open Finalist. They have been Finalists many times. Kilties have been once. MCL & Alliance never have. To get in, one of the other 3 will have to take it from Cru.

If you're asking about the '84 Suncoast Vietnam "Requiem" piece, your take was absolutely correct, IMO. I think we can take your post, mine above, madscout's, and a few others, and publish them together as a cogent anti-narration compilation, using that one line of argument.

That's why usually try to ask myself, "Is this trip really necessary?" right before I hit "Add reply". Sometimes, I spend a long time typing up a reply to something or other, and after I ask that question, I simply hit the back arrow and go about my business elsewhere. The words just disappear into the ether. So, back to the discussion at hand: No, narration is not completely dead. Just mostly. ($1 to "The Princess Bride", and $1 to whoever brought up the relevant quote from it in this thread so many pages back.)

Why does that description bring to mind a mental image of an animated film, with an acorn, a glacier-contained lake, and a small furry (& extinct) animal?

So, if it's that absurdly bogus, why are you (still) commenting on it? (Hence, dragging out even farther.)

Some of the "extreme" pro-narration folks here have explicitly said that they would continue going to DCI shows if narration went bye-bye. They liked DCI well enough pre-amps, such that none of them were complaining, "You know, DCI would be so much better if they allowed amped talking."

Well, isn't that the wingman's job? Make the flight leader look good? Way to take those arrows, guys! The language one speaks is irrelevant for this discussion, as English is the lingua franca of the world. (Business around the world nowadays is conducted in English - much like how diplomacy used to be conducted entirely in French.) However, madscout's(?) point is that as soon as spoken words are used, the meaning of the work changes. His particular point about ballet is spot on. Even in the world of opera, with singing and some dialog, people (esp Americans) don't really listen to the arias' words (written in German, Italian, French, etc), or understand the complete meaning of the words - the beauty and tone of the music conveys the meaning. I don't understand a word of the aria "Un bel di" yet I still get what it means, the anguish and sorrow, and the longing for "one fine day" in the future. Wordless productions always come across better to a wide audience, because they are liberated from the "tyranny" of the words that "impose" meaning. Take the words away from Cadets' 2008 show, and we are all free to imbue it with whatever meaning (or even make it "meaning-free") we wish. That eliminates any and all griping that was heard. (Like with the 2007 program, almost every single spectator raved about the quality of the non-verbal portions of the show.) Of course, that requires that whatever meaning the show's creators intended was wiped away - but that's kind of irrelevant, as most artists' works have been "re-intepreted" by viewers through the years. The greatest art inspires us because not every "t" is crossed and "i" is dotted for us. The vagueness (slight or not) allows everyone to put his own "spin" on the art, to cause us to imagine it in our own way. The very ambiguity in the Mona Lisa's smile stokes our imaginations, thereby making it arguably the most famous painting of all time. If Da Vinci had put a caption on it to tell us exactly what we were supposed to think about it, that effect would probably be lost. Putting narration to drum corps, to me, is like Da Vinci putting a caption on the Mona Lisa, it diminishes the work that went into creating it. The painting was intended to be the meaning. Don't tell me what to feel when I'm watching a drum corps show, show me. If your design is good, and the kids go a good job with it, I'll get it anyways. As a famous artist once said (I think it was Toulouse-Lautrec), "I don't paint the table. I paint the feeling I get from the table." (I'm paraphrasing, but that's the essence.) He means that the painting is not literally (note that word) about the table - it is about the feeling the table invokes.

You're very welcome, DA. I've never seen Pioneer up close (in rehearsal or the like), but from what I know of their situation, it's not a huge guess to believe that those kids come there for the learning experience - and not to rack up trophies or gaudy numbers. Truly, the best characteristic to have in such "raw material".

Knowing DA as I do, I have no doubt that those kids at Pioneer learned the maximum amount possible for anyone to learn about playing brass instruments. And he is not given to false praise: if he said that about those kids, then it's true. If anyone could take a pile of raw material and make a good brass line from them, DA's it. Kudos to the brass players (and the rest of the corps too) at Pioneer!

Well, this discussion has drifted a bit off the topic of narration. However, I did want to chime in with a thought. My memory of marching bands goes back to 1984, and I don't recall much singing in Western PA that year, but one school had a wonderful version of Midler's "The Rose", complete with amped vocalist, who was the feature. It was their closer, most of it was played backfield, but the climax in the middle of the tune had the singer backed rather well by the band. (I haven't listened to it in a long time, so maybe my now-more-sophisticated ears will hear it "differently" now than I remember it.) Even though I had that example in my mind, I still have always cringed at hearing amped singers in corps. Why? I don't know, except that corps have (and to me, should've) reached for different emotional levers than bands. My HS band also experimented back then with synthesizers (and amps to hear said synths), and we were trained to ignore the pit sounds (like you would any other time) and hoped that the people setting up the pit got the settings right. Sometimes that happened, and sometimes it didn't. With greater dynamic contrasts possible in corps, and even with better training and higher tolerances for balance, than in marching band, getting the right balance with an amped singer seems to be a lot touchier. WW instruments are a lot more subtle and probably blend a lot better with voices than brass instruments. I just think there are a lot more on-field obstacles to overcome in dc than in mb to make singing work. Other people have brought up a lot of non-amped instances of singing prior to 2004, as examples to support the amped instances. I enjoyed '85 Freelancers (wordless) vocals, as well as Star's "M-I-C-K-E-Y". Even the Crossmen's vocals were not grating on me as out of place. But, with the prohibition on singing lifted prior to 1985, we saw a spike in the usage of the tool, followed by a pretty fast flat-line. So, this current trend has been seen before. The only difference this time is, there is one corps that, for political reasons, has tried to champion the usage of amped voice. Otherwise, it seems like, once the usage was allowed, there was a spike in that usage, with several corps trying it out, and then usage has dwindled to a select few. It speaking on a drum corps field dead? No. As someone else pointed out, one could put a marching tymp line out there still. (The real question is, "Why would you want to, other than to prove a point?") So long as it is not banned, anyone COULD use it. The real question is, "Who will want to?" But, then, too, something else useful to point out is, corps have been speaking on the field for longer than since amping was allowed. ("Live, from Sacramento! The Freelancers!") It's just that, with amping, we can hear so much more of it. A lot of people have said they could live with it, if it was used with more discretion. That's why Bluecoats get a "pass", and Cadets don't. We'll probably see a minimal usage of narration on field over the coming years, unless someone hits on a formula that makes lots of talking work. But, that's doubtful. Bluecoats probably like using it because, while Cadets are out there over-doing it, they look like they are being smarter (and they prob are). Not to mention, it helps set them apart from the rest of DCI. If Cadets stop doing it the way they have been recently, you might see Bloooo change how they use it. And, that's about it. So, that's my 20 mills.