Dale Bari

Time for my annual congrats for an amasing streak that's still going strong: This is year number 24 that the Empire Statesmen have finished in the Top 4.

OK, I'll play too: 1987 - Steel City Ambassadors 4th (out of 22) (1988-1994 MIA) 1995 - Sound Wave 15th (of 15) 1996 - Crusaders 8th (15) 1997 - Crusaders 10th (13O+3A) 1998 (Cru A Guard) 1999 - Crusaders 9th (12+4) 2000 - Crusaders 7th (11+5) 2001 - Crusaders 7th (15) 2002 - Crusaders 9th (16) 2003 - Brigadiers 2nd (17) 2004 (spectator) 2005 - Statesmen 2nd (16+10) 2006 - Statesmen 2nd (16+7) (And if I'd had my way, I'd've been in Brigs in 2004 - 2nd, making 4 second place finishes in a row.)

OK, so the logic of this escapes me. Awards for Class A were changed away from Prelims to results from Finals only. But, somehow Prelims for Open need to be taken into account for Awards at Finals? All Prelims are used for is to say which corps make up the Top 10, and to stand in for Finals in case of an emergency (a la 1987). The corps that make Finals use Prelims as a chance for their final tweaks. Using Prelims to help determine awards at Finals is like saying, "OK, now we'll use the results from Syracuse to help determine the awards at Scranton." Finals and Prelims are two different shows. Unless you're in 11th, Prelims don't mean anything vis a vis Finals. Just like West Haven has nothing to do with Finals either.

Congrats to everyone for an exciting 2010 season. Good job, Bucs, for #6 title in a row. Good job, Statesmen, for year number 23 in the Top 4. One point though: 2010: Bucs, MBI, ES, Hurcs, Cabs 2009: Bucs, MBI, ES, Hurcs, Cabs 2008: Bucs, MBI, ES, Hurcs, Cabs Can this get more repetitive?

MBI score is up on DCA website!

And yet.... Bucs' score is only 0.2 different from last year - same weekend, same venue, same performance position, same Prelims seeding position resulting.

Uh, according to what I read, Connecticut won Color Guard which DOES count in the score.

Congratulations to the Empire Statesmen for their 22nd consecutive year in the Top 4! (since 1988)

It is late, and I just saw this thread, so that's my way of saying I haven't read every post. Therefore, I apologize in advance if any of my points had been mentioned already. From my experience, the Kingston crowd has many local folks in attendance. They aren't avid followers of DCA, but they show up every year ready to cheer for what they like. Usually, they are partial to Statesmen, but they always give credit wherever it's due. And, it's always a packed house. Is $20 a lot for a DCA show? Compared to most of the shows I have paid to get in, yeah, it's on the high side. (But, nothing compared to the YEA show in Westminster, MD.) DCI Pittsburgh was asking $17 per ticket this year (for an 8 corps show headlined by Cadets & Crown). The only reason we went was because I got comp tickets. (I'm on staff with the HS where the show is held.) I was last there in 2007. We went to two shows that summer (Woodbridge, VA, was the other one), we went to two shows in 2008 (Manassas, VA, and Scranton) and two more this year (Jamestown and DCI Pittsburgh). At every one, we sat in the handicapped seating with the kids in a stroller. The Kingston show was the only one where we were charged a ticket for the stroller. So, it does seem to be more about the money there than most places we go. But, I have to say it's just about my favorite venue to watch a drum corps show. (Yes, even when the bugs attacked us in 2004.) I may have some quibbles with how shows are run, but in this day of drum corps scarcity, I give anyone willing to put on a DCA show a big ol' thumbs up. One thing I have seen lately is the Family Ticket price the Brigs have offered at the shows they are sponsoring this year. $30 gets Mom & Dad and all the kids into General Admission. I'd patronize any show within my travel radius that gave that kind of deal.

My family and I attended the Jamestown DCA show put on by this crew. I LOVE the family ticket plan. That is a great way to attract more folks to the show. And, I second the notion to get your ticket pre-sale. BTW, the show was great despite the rain. Best wishes to the all my former corps and the rest of the competitors at the CNS DCA show.

Earlier in my career, I might have said Allentown, but lately I find myself thinking about perfoming at Dietz Stadium in Kingston, NY. The turf is great, the stands are close to the field (even with the track), the crowd is always very receptive, and the area where the buses are parked lets the corps all get friendly. As from the fan's perspective, I enjoy that place too.

What distinctions are those? Why do corps deserve that distinction? (IOW, why are people rightly riled when someone calls corps "band"?) That can be considered a technical statement. You, like many others here (MikeD comes to mind) believe that drum corps has always been a subset of marching band. However, like many legal decisions, there is what is allowed and then there is what's right, and they are not necessarily congruent. If in light of those distinctions solicited above, how does one square these two concepts: Corps are distinct from band. Corps are the same as band.Either they're distinct or they aren't. (distinct: –adjective 1. distinguished as not being the same; not identical; separate (sometimes fol. by from): His private and public lives are distinct. 2. different in nature or quality; dissimilar (sometimes fol. by from): Gold is distinct from iron. 3. clear to the senses or intellect; plain; unmistakable: The ship appeared as a distinct silhouette. 4. distinguishing or perceiving clearly: distinct vision. 5. unquestionably exceptional or notable: a distinct honor.) For corps and band to be the same, they have to have a common beginning. Otherwise they are simply different orgs that happen to look the same.

Yeah, well, I was looking at the early season scores myself then, HOPING that was the case. I was pretty happy to beat them in E Prov (the first time I'd ever beaten the Cabs in 10 DCA seasons) but the small margin was a little scary. Then, I will never forget standing at the gate in West Haven, watching them perform right before us and saying to myself and everyone else around me in Red & Black, "Uh Oh!"

Yes, well, I've been busy with the twins and moving (back to Pittsburgh area) and work (or rather lack thereof). The particular problem with 2003 was we maxed that show out. As much as I enjoyed performing it, the closer was not up the quality of the rest of the program, esp "Tommy", we had no real special "Wow" moment, and the Cabs had a great total package. I think we succumbed to the confluence of a lot of small factors (like having too big of a brass line, too many people who needed to be carried along, a general upsurge in the overall competition, etc). At that point the whole "Anybody but Brigs" sentiment coalesced around a hot competitor (Cabs) to take us down. The track record of the Bucs over the last few seasons makes me wonder if any of those factors are in play this season. My sinking suspicion is: No. No matter how strong the "Anybody but Bucs" sentiment is, who is the one hot competitor to pace the Buccaneers? I wish the Cabs a great season, but in 2003 they started out right alongside the Brigs. Trying to make up a 4 point deficit is not a good start. We'll see how Hurcs and Statesmen get out of the gate. MBI seems to be coming out strong, but using the Midwest scores (even if on DCA sheets) is too suspect to divine anything useful. And, they are not going to see Bucs till Prelims. MBI'll have to have a huge lead already built up by then to be a legitimate contender for the crown. And Bucs already starting at a 76+ isn't a good sign for that scenario either. If I had any real money to bet, it would be on Bucs for another wire-to-wire season. I'd love to be proven wrong, but that's a chance I'll take.

And, if I note properly, Bucs will not see Hurricanes until Cabs' Grand Prix (7/11), Statesmen until Scranton (8/1), and MBI until Prelims. Bucs vs Cabs happens 4 times before Finals (and 1 is already done). Bucs vs Hurcs happens 2 times. Bucs vs ES happens 2 times. Bucs vs MBI happens not at all. So, there are exactly 8 chances for a 2nd-5th corps from 2008 to topple Bucs prior to Finals, and 1 chance is already used up. (BTW, does anyone honestly think that if it hasn't happened before Prelims that it could happen afterward?)

In 2003, the Brigs and Cabs didn't meet until first week of Aug. Brigs won - barely (0.313). But, if you look at the scores the two corps posted in the weeks prior, Cabs were about the same or even higher than Brigs most weekends. 6/28: B=72.800, C=71.275 7/05: B=75.175, C=74.950 7/12: B=78.200, C=80.825 7/19: B=82.900, C=83.650 7/26: B=83.913, C=86.650 It was at West Haven the week before Finals when Cabs spanked us. THAT gave them the Mighty MO going into Nats. Cabs certainly were on OUR radar screens in '03 from the very first week. Also note that Brigs clobbered Statesmen the first week (5.500) that same year, but by Finals the spread was down to 0.262.

What "mess"? Who's afraid of what change? What exactly are you seeing that the rest of us don't? I see an organization of all-age drum corps that as recently as 2001 had only 11 Open Class corps, and as recently as 1993 numbered only 13 corps total. As of last season, there were 27 corps in Prelims and, what 14 Open class? In 1993, all of those 13 corps fit into a small geographic area. Now the membership stretches from coast to coast, from So Cal to Minnesota to New England to Florida. DCA adapts as time goes on. It has survived 44 years without your help or mine, and it is in as strong a position as it has ever been. Look, if you think that DCA is in some need of a major overhaul, join a corps, get elected director, then make a proposal to change the Board and/or the bylaws. If DCA had wanted to operate as you suggest, they would've tried it at some point. Remember, DCA was created to give the corps autonomy from the ruling organizations running the shows way back when. Why would the corps vote to reduce that autonomy? Each corps is a business (non-profit though they are) but DCA is really a cartel, more like OPEC than the BOD of a corporation. It controls the rules of the game, but does not control the game itself. Yes, there is a brand to promote, but that is done through the collective force of all corps doing their individual things at once. As I recall, there once was a corps in Ohio, called the Ohio Brass Factory. It's base, Alliance, OH, was not too far from Pittsburgh, which was the home of the Pittsburgh Rockets and then the Steel City Ambassadors. At the same time, the Erie Thunderbirds were in full flight as well. As of the end of 2008, there was no competitive corps in any of those areas. Why did that area become fallow? Was that DCA's fault? If so, then how does DCA choose what areas are "worthy" of intervention, to "invest" in, and which are not? If not, then it wouldn't be DCA's responsibility to grow those corps back, would it? DCA provides the venue and the network. The rest is up to the corps. It's that simple. There's no "assumption" on my part because that is fact - that's how DCA operates. If I make any assumption, it is that the people who run the corps and DCA know their business better than I do. If DCA wishes to change to meet some new need, it will. It will, because it already has. That's not my decision or even yours.

I knew it was ONE of those years. Thanks for the correction. (They all start to run together after a while.)

So now you've shifted from a position where Reading was 9 hours and Syracuse was 6.5 to one where they are essentially the same 8 hours. OK. It doesn't really matter. In my experience, having the Hawthorne Caballeros (or whoever) come to a show to draw fans to a new corps' show in a non-DCA area won't do diddly to improve a corps' bottom line. In 2007, the Rochester Crusaders were the marquee corps at the Woodbridge, VA, DCA show sponsored by Shenandoah Sound. The attendance at the show was sparse. (At that time, Cru had not been in DCA Top 10 since 2003.) In 2008, the Reading Buccaneers were the marquee corps at the SS-sponsored show (moved to Manassas Park, VA), and the show grew from 4 corps to 7 (also including the Hurcs) plus the Marine D&B. Attendance was slightly improved. We'll see if SS can keep the momentum up this year. The main point is that DCA didn't dictate that those corps go to that show; the individual corps made those collective decisions. Did that translate into a better corps? Well, SS fielded in 2008 after being inactive from 06-07. Would anyone from SS care to claim that having Cru at the 07 show made the difference? I doubt it. If SS finishes higher than another corps in this 09 season, would they credit having Bucs and Hurcs at their show in 08, or would they credit their own hard work at making that happen? It's still a "build it and they will come" scenario. Let the folks in Ohio/Indiana/Michigan who want corps to build them. Then, they can sponsor shows and attempt to recruit corps to attend. Or, you don't even need a corps. Anyone can sponsor a show. Many DCA shows are not sponsored by a DCA corps, including some of my favorite shows like Kingston, NY, and Scranton, PA.

Well, DCA does what it is structured to do. To do otherwise requires it to be re-structured. But, then it will no longer be DCA as we know it. You conveniently ignore the fact that for any circuit to promote member corps' attendance at particular show(s) would introduce a fundamental flaw into whatever structure it does have. Unless you mean for the circuit to be a dictatorship. Even the most socialistic and dictator-like organization out there in the entertainment business (the NFL) has an objective formula for telling the teams where they are going every season - and does not favor attendance of particular teams at particular games. DCA can help individual corps to prosper by giving them oppotunities to be competitive. It can put them in touch with other corps of similar make-up to beg, borrow, and steal ideas for getting stronger or even just surviving. It provides as comprehensive an annual gathering for all to take measure of their progress as possible. That's all. For it to do more is to upset the apple cart. Which is not good for the activity.

But, you either misunderstand or else misrepresent what DCA actually does. DCA does not will shows into existence and it doesn't push member corps to attend particular shows. To do so would open the circuit up to charges of favoritism. DCA acts as a broker for delivering corps to shows that wish to have DCA corps participate. Nothing more and nothing less. A show can have DCA corps or not and can, through successfully recruiting enough DCA corps, become a sanctioned DCA show - or not. Maybe individual corps can talk about going to support the show sponsor, but DCA can't afford to be seen as promoting one regular show over another. We've talked a lot on DCP about the existence of DCA-participating corps in parts of the country outside of the old area (NE). Most of us have agreed that it is a "Build it and they will come" situation. Having the Top 3, or whatever, DCA corps swoop into a brand new corps' area will not conjure up a suddenly stable DCA corps where none was before. And, no fair way exists of requiring any corps to participate where it does not wish to go. Like in the economy, there are leading indicators and there are lagging indicators. Employment is a lagging indicator. (By the time employment goes up, the recovery is already in full swing.) Having corps participate in another corps' show is a lagging indicator. That happens after all the other work of getting the corps on its feet has already occurred, not before. Surely, with the right recruiting effort and business plan, someone could find 200 people (members plus staff plus support staff) to put together a successful corps in a state of 11.5 million people (18 million including IN). Heck, the combined populations of Cinncinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Toledo, Indianapolis, and Fort Wayne is 9 million themselves. (With the extreme ends of that area - Cleveland and Indy - being only 5 hours apart.) And, just for the record, Reading, PA, is 0.75 hours closer to Columbus, OH, than Syracuse, NY, is (6:55 vs 7:39). (edited for typo)

Those are all interesting propositions. I could add some different twists, like representing music from dead corps by current ones. Say, PR playing "Danny Boy" or SCV giving us a new "Auld Lang Syne" (though Kilties are very much alive in a new venue) or Madison laying out a hip version of "Aquarius" or even BD zinging us with a blazing "Thunder & Blazes". BTW, BD did perform "Strawberry Soup" (1993) and Cadets did perform "Young Persons Guide" (2002 already. But these corps have all changed so much from the days when these pieces were all still in vogue to perform. Would you even get something that any one of us might consider to be a worthy homage to the originals? I must really be a drum corps olde pharte if a lot of you are nostalgic for a piece ("Bird and Bela in Bb") that itself at the time made me wish for BD to go back to what they "used to be" like "before". Methinks that this thread, though fun, has about as much chance of coming true as getting Spirit to don those satin disasters c. 1988-9 and play "Interstellar Suite" again. (And that is something I wouldn't even wish on my worst enemy.)

Well, then, we could add "Artistry" and "Russian Christmas Music" to a "Redux Wish List" for Crossmen. But, then again, I think we could file this thread with wishes for World Peace and Elvis to be reincarnated. I think it's time to watch my Legacy DVDs again.

That's fine. I've seen a lot of "Yes, it's true"/"No, it's not" back and forth without much attribution. Thanks.

It is not exactly the same thing as amps and mics. In fact, it is close to being the exact opposite. A scoop physically deflects the sound waves, re-directing the natural sound that would normally propagate in a direction away from the observer toward the observer. It doesn't change the frequency, phase, or amplitude of the wave. It just focuses MORE waves in a particular place. If it alters anything, it combats the inverse square rule of wave attenuation. Scoops don't change the characteristics of the wave, but amps do. An analogous comparison would be for the observer to cup his ears with his hand (to collect more sound waves in his ears) vs to use "TV Ears". He may hear more with the TV Ears, but the received sound is identical to the natural sound detected from the source. Scoops also don't have the potential for causing distracting, unintentional sounds. A mistake with a scoop is the same as without a scoop, and no new ones can be introduced. It's still all on the players to perform correctly - or not. Scoops also don't have other features that have to be locked down and ignored to avoid violating the rules - or to tempt the corps into using them, hoping to not get caught. Scoops are ON all the time, so they don't have level or volume controls that can be fiddled with at various times to cover up something. Again, the quality of the performance is dependent 100% on the players. Thus, with scoops, a judge's positive and negative comments are based solely on the abilities and performances of the players - and nothing else. That is not guaranteed to be the case with amps.