Dale Bari

<cue tinny PA voice> "Clean up in Aisle 3" <bzzzp>

Your sig says you worked public relations for the Bush Administration this year? It must be tough trying to improve the President's PR.

So, then your answer is, "No, I would not expect the corps in that case to say 'listen to it for what it is. If you don't like it, that is up to you.'" No, the arranger's name is not important. But, the arranger's training and ability are. DCI designers are expected to be the best in the world at what they do. If someone writes a sub-standard book for the horns, drums, guard, or drill, the folks on DCP here would criticize it as such. Even you (who loathes to criticize the corps) say that some corps, like Cadets, have their good stuff and their not-so-good stuff. If a no-name designer, with no professional training, was hired by a top DCI corps, and wrote mediocre music, guard work, or drill, the critics on DCP would be all over that corps and that designer all season. Would anyone here excuse that kind of a move with "listen/watch it for what it is. If you don't like, that is up to you"?

Maybe because I added all the other text, my original question wasn't obvious. So, let me ask it again, without all the padding: So, if a corps hornline or drumline played music that was written by an amateur arranger, and played it amateurly, with obvious flaws (improper intonation, bad phrasing, weak dynamic contrast, etc), would you expect them to say "[we] want you to listen to it for what it is. If you don't like it, that is up to you"?

Maybe it makes more sense this way: No corps between 1991 (Star) and 2008 (PR) beat Devils, Cavies, AND Cadets at Finals. That's 16 years!

So, if a corps hornline or drumline played music that was written by an amateur arranger, and played it amateurly, with obvious flaws (improper intonation, bad phrasing, weak dynamic contrast, etc), would you expect them to say "[we] want you to listen to it for what it is. If you don't like it, that is up to you"? Why would you accept less than top-notch performance and professional writing standards for one section of the corps, and not the others? As you have cited in your disagreement with VKGarry about the '05 singer's performance: maybe you like it or you don't, but it can be objectively said whether the performer sang flat or not. Whether you like the narration or not, it was not written professionally nor was it delivered professionally. (It certainly was not up to the standards of the rest of the corps.) These folks are world-class marchers & performers, but they aren't world-class orators/actors. GH may run a world-class drum corps, but his scripting abilities are not world-class. Isn't the main distinction now between HS bands and DCI quality? Why give a pass on quality to one aspect of a show? (Unless it's to prove a polemical point.)

That's a good site. I like the view of the opposite side of Wyoming Valley. I've probably practiced there more frequently than for any other show. Beware the steep hillside. The showers are very nice.

Since it looks likely that we'll be attending this show, can someone chime in with where the corps will be practicing? We'd like to take in some rehearsals before hitting the hotel (Yeah, Clarion!) & show site. Edit: OK, NOW! I see a thread devoted to this same question. However, only Buff has responded with Cabs' site at this time. So, maybe, for extra coverage, I'll leave this post up. Thanks.

Right! Which is why I said that any booing came from partisans in the crowd, and most people probably stayed to see Hurcs' vic concert. Which is why I also said that I would've been surprised at anything else. So, no, I don't think that anyone implied bad sportsmanship on their behalf. (At least, I didn't.) I also said that the crowd has adopted them as a "hometown" corps, not THE Hometown Corps. Since no current corps is indigenous to Kingston, NY, they could adopt all and every corps as they see fit. Some people have thought that Cabs or other corps have been embraced by the folks in Kingston over the years, so no, this is not a "Statesmen-only" phenomenon. This show is located such that Statesmen's, Cabs', and Hurcs' homers could attend in roughly equal numbers, but this is also a show where many locals attend too and, as such, out-number the corps' homers. And, while they may not know a lot about the latest ins-and-outs of DCA corps, they know what's good and what's not, and reward what they like. And very frequently, they get it right, top to bottom.

I wasn't there this year (as I said earlier), but I'd be very surprised if the crowd had left Hurcs on the field after retreat. That's not the Kingston crowd I know. I suspect that a few ES partisans made their feelings known, but the majority of the crowd probably applauded the Hurcs and stayed to see them strut their stuff in the encore. THAT's the Kingston crowd I know and love. We missed this year 'cuz my parents' 40th anniversary was this weekend. Sounds like it was a great show, once again. Here's to being there next year.

I have been to the Kingston, NY, DCA show since 2004 (until this year) both as a spectator and as a performer. There seems to be quite a lot of chemistry between Statesmen and the crowd there. ES won the show from 2004-2006 and were just edged out last year by Cabs. So, being edged out by Hurcs might have been a little more than some (biased, perhaps) fans wanted to hear. The Kingston crowd is very demonstrative, and I think they've adopted ES as a "hometown" corps. So when the corps doesn't finish as well as the crowd thinks they should've, they let everyone else know. To the reviewer, thanks for your report. I enjoyed it very much.

Feeding, changing, and chasing around twin toddlers does not allow for the energy OR the time to pull off such a feat. Besides, in the last month or so, I think our TV has been on all of about 12 hours combined. (And I'm not sure that I miss it either.) All that technophile stuff is better left to the singles and DINKs. I'll let you guys watch and report for me. Although, I'm sure I'll check in on the scores Saturday night after my parents' 40th anniversary party ends.

Not only that, but all the ESPN broadcast did was bring DCI grief from folks who wanted to see a show and not a recruiting commercial. (That group included me, btw.) It's a shame that, after all these years, TV exposure is gone, but it wasn't doing DCI any good anyway, with no upside, and a WHOLE lot of downside. In the ESPN show's favor, it was in HD on a big screen - at least, bigger than my computer monitor.

Good luck, Joey, and congrats on the impending release. Tamm & I both hope this debut will bring you a whole new set of fans to add to all of us here in corps. Just make sure you remember us all when you become a big-time star! We'll make sure we get a copy of the CD when it's out. (Although, we're looking for someone with some pull who might slip us an advance copy <nudge, wink> LOL!) Also good luck for you and the Statesmen as you go down the home stretch here into Finals.

Anything is possible. I was just trying to use head-to-head match-ups, instead of absolute scores to build my scenarios. Fusion Core and White Sabers have had several match-ups with Open corps, and I haven't seen an opportunity for them to be considered seriously. I used Dream's, Chops', and Govies' match-ups with their local Open Finalists to gauge their chances as well. Dream has a shot too. Less so for Chops (sorry) and Govies. While gaps may be small, the more "bodies" one has to climb over, the harder it is to get up there.

Yes, how silly of me. I should've said, only once have Kilties beaten Cru out for a Finals spot (1998). Thanks, JC! Same goes for Matt. I had forgotten that Alliance made A Finals in '05. I was busy with my own corps at Finals, so that fact didn't get pressed into my mind. That's what I get for trying to write this stuff from memory.

I think it's safe to say that 8 corps are definitely in Finals: Bucs, Hurcs, Cabs, ES, MBI, Brigs, Bush, Renegades. (and about in that order too.) The real drama resides in the last two Open Finals spots, which may be taken by an A corps, and the Class A Finals. So of the next five corps, who gets into Open finals: CV, Cru, Kilties, MCL, Alliance (who has the only realistic chance of the A corps)? CV and Cru are returning Finalists. Cru has not beaten CV in several years. Kilties have only ever beaten Cru out for Finals once (1998). OTOH, Kilties only finished 5 points back of MBI recently, which is only 1 point more than how far Cru was behind Brigs. MCL and Alliance were more than 4 points behind CV, who had bested Cru by only 3 earlier this season. So, I think CV is in. Now, it comes down to Cru or Kilties for 10th. History and experience give Cru the edge. Sentimentality and momentum from last season give Kilties an advantage. Alliance is a lock for Class A Finals. Dream was a Finalist last year, and by all reports are even better this year, so Dream is in too. Chops and Govies are prior A champs. Then there's Fusion Core, the new corps on the block. White Sabers (finalists in '06) are a dark horse. Who to choose? Open Finals: Bucs - too tough to catch, look out for #4 Hurcs - hopefully this rarified air won't choke them ES - anniversary surge nets them one place Cabs - on familiar territory here MBI - can't crack the highest echelon against these corps Brigs - not enough oomph to hold off MBI this year Renegades - 7th will please their dark overlords Bush - more horsepower needed this year CV - better than ever doesn't get them higher than ever Cru - make it in by the skin of their teeth ----- Kilties - edged out by less than a point. A Finals: Alliance - second time finalist, first time champs Dream - getting closer Chops - former champs back in Finals Fusion - no sophomore slump ------- Govies - out by a gnat's eyelash. I think the final push comes from being seen more times by the judges. Cru and Fusion get that edge over their competitors. Disclaimer: based upon information gathered up until this point in time. Unless/until some corps can prove they can overtake the corps ahead of them, this is the way I see it.

Those may very well all be true. The one thing that cuts against MBI & Renegades (and I'm no genius for figuring this out) is their lack of critiques with the judges who will see them in Finals/Prelims.

Well, it may be true in another sense - if ES doesn't win, some fans may still think they took it in the end.

Not sure what happens in other states, but in PA the high school football season starts the same weekend as DCA. Those HS kids in MB and DCA will have to miss something. Lots of corps make the DCA Friday rehearsal mandatory. Unless the band director (and school admin) is pretty forgiving, that might make life tough. This is one reason I have been ambivalent about recruiting kids younger than HS seniors. Sometimes it takes more than, "if there's a will, there's a way." College is a different story, obviously.

I see the corps in groups first. Top Group: Bucs Next Threesome: Hurcs Cabs ES Close on their heels: Brigs Bush MBI Pushing Higher: CV Renegades Cru Kilties MCL A Class knocking on the Open Finals’ door: Alliance Chops Dream Other A contenders: Govies Fusion White Sabers Standing in good stead: Carolina Grennies LSM Sun Devils Shenandoah Gulf Coast Frontier OK, so some corps can break free of a group and pull into an upper one. I base most of my thoughts on experience and head-to-head competition. No corps has beaten Bucs, nor does any seem likely to. Hurcs and Cabs have traded places, but ES hasn't bested either of them yet. Brigs & Bush have traded places, and MBI is a big mystery, in those terms. CV and Cru met once, with CV coming out on top by about 3. Kilties and MCL have not met. MCL was down to CV by a little more than 4. And Renegades haven't met anyone, except Dream. Alliance essentially tied MCL, so that puts them close to Open Finals, but not in, because MCL isn't a Finalist either yet. Dream scored very close to Renegades out west, so I put them here based on that. Chops beat Govies (A runners-up last year) twice recently, so I put them in this group based on that. Govies are always a contender for Class A. Fusion Core has put in solidly improving numbers, and White Sabers made a big jump up recently. The rest of the A corps have jumped around with a somewhat chaotic schedule, and the possible permutations begin to stagger the mind. Based upon first-hand viewings, experience, and knowing how judges can be, I believe that almost anything can happen below the first couple of spots, esp in the Class A corps. Then, like picking your brackets for the NCAA Basketball tournament, there comes the time to judge which corps will be Cinderellas: Will ES make an anniversary surge? Does Bush have a fifth gear in their vehicle again this year? What ninja stealth surprise does Renegades have ready? Can Cru beat history for a change? Will Alliance do the (up-to-now) impossible? So, now for my predictions… (Sorry, but you have to wait for some post after my next one.)

I have no doubt, with the anniversary this season, that ES enjoys accolades from many DCA fans. About the "home field advantage", though... In '06, we closed the gap a lot with Bucs the Corning/Scranton weekend. (At separate shows, the gap was about 0.4 or so.) At Prelims, and again at Finals, the gap ended up about 0.25. Yes, Ernesto kinda scrambled things, but, speaking as a Statesman, being "at home" was not all rainbows, moonbeams, and brown paper packages tied up with string. Finally, IIRC, Caballeros were voted "Fan Favorite" at Finals. Yes, at the last show ES scored almost (0.4 away) as high as Bucs, but that was a week later. In 2005, Reading took 2 weekends off from competition (and took one off completely), they came back at Syracuse with a really big margin over us (about 3 points, IIRC), even though we had been moving up in the interim. If the margin at Scranton next weekend between Bucs and whoever is second is less than before their break, I'd be very shocked. Let me suggest another scenario: In 2001, the Brigs were mowing down the competition. But, because of the rules and the way Bucs and Brigs scheduled shows, Bucs ended up seeded higher than the Brigs in Prelims and performed last. Yet, Brigs won with a pretty big margin anyway. Come Finals the next night, it ended up being only a 0.1 difference. However, in the final analysis, Brigs remained DCA Champs. I propose that it may get interesting at some point here, but in the end the Bucs will remain DCA Champs for 2008. So, my head is saying Bucs, but let it be clear: my heart is pulling for Statesmen.

Disclaimer: I am nobody official. I thought listing the corps by hotel would be informative for folks. I simply went on Google to find these addresses. I don't think there are any confusing ones, except for the Hampton Inn, where I noted the two addresses, and the Holiday Inn, which seems like the Airport is it. If I have listed something wrong, the error is mine, so don't bother Allen about it. And, I apologize in advance to Allen, if I end up making more work for him. Radisson (175 Jefferson Rd Rochester, NY 14623 (585) 475-1910): Statesmen Clarion Riverside (120 Main St E, Rochester, NY (585) 546-6400‎): Brigs, Cabs, Kilties, Gulf Coast Sound, Dream, Grenadiers, Shenandoah Sound Doubletree (1111 Jefferson Rd, Rochester, NY (585) 475-1510‎): MBI, Renegades, Bridgemen Quality Inn (1273 Chili Ave, Rochester, NY (585) 464-8800‎): Bush, Govies Holiday Inn Airport(?) (if so, 911 Brooks Ave, Rochester, NY (877) 863-4780‎): Hurcs, CV, White Sabers Marriott Airport (1890 Ridge Rd W, Rochester, NY (585) 225-6880‎): MCL, LSM, BAC Alumni Courtyard by Marriott (420 Paddy Creek Cir‎ Rochester, NY): Chops, Fusion Brookwood Inn (800 Pittsford Victor Rd # 1, Pittsford, NY (585) 248-9000‎): Frontier, Sky Alumni Comfort Inn Airport (395 Buell Rd., Rochester, NY (585) 436-4400‎): Alliance Hampton Inn(?) (717 East Henrietta Rd, Rochester, NY (585) 272-7800‎ OR 500 Center Place Dr, Rochester, NY (585) 663-6070‎): Carolina Gold, Sun Devils Woodcliff (199 Woodcliff Dr Fairport, NY 14450 (585) 381-4000): Excelsior, Sky Alumni (also) Hyatt Regency (125 East Main St Rochester, NY 14604 (585) 546-1234): Scout House, Park City Pride, Les Diplomates Rochester Crowne Plaza (70 State St, Rochester, NY (585) 546-3450‎): Cabs Alumni La Quinta Inn (1956 Lyell Ave, Rochester, NY (585) 254-1000‎): Optimists

In the 1970's, I believe Pat Cavanaugh scored the first 100 in DCI I&E, playing FH for Gen. Butler Vagabonds. In '87, Debbie Kutsch had a FH solo in "One More Time Chuck Corea" (reprised from '86), and Pat had a FH solo in "Come Rain or Come Shine".

No, your post was an attempt to press the case that the Bucs work harder than everyone else, which is an affront to everyone else in DCA. And your "hired gun" comment was most definitely a dig at another corps. You're not fooling anyone here. The "guilty conscience" crack is merely another attempt at obfuscating the target of your flames. The term "hired gun" is coded language, and everyone here knows it. If anyone is "guilty", it is the people who couldn't (and apparently still can't) stand the continued success of one corps and use loaded terms to disparage that success. If you were so secure in the accomplishments of your own corps, you wouldn't feel the need to "defend" them here from non-attacks.