Dale Bari

OK, then let me put it this way: Sure, they finished 3rd in 1968, but that had nothing to do with their jump up from 5th in 1996 to 1st in 1997. In the five seasons prior to 1997 (1992-1996), Brigs never finished higher than 5th, then they ran off 8 straight seasons of 1st or 2nd. In the 5 seasons (7, actually) prior to winning in 2005, the Bucs never finished LOWER than 5th. So, the Brigs' run could be considered the bigger surprise. There, does that square with everyone's history books? PS: Since finishing 3rd in 1968, the Brigs only competed in DCA for 3 more seasons until 1992: 10th in 1969, 8th in 1971, and 13th in 1973. If you ignore that one time the Brigs placed 3rd, they never got above 6th place until 1996. (source: Fromthepressbox.com)

QFT On Membership Day for the 2005 season, Bucs did indeed start strong and have not let up since. The results speak clearly. Other corps work hard and do difficult things (maybe even more so than the corps in question here), but no one else has put it all together like they have. And it looks likely that that is true for 2008 as well.

I hope the is for recognizing that, even though the 1990's re-incarnation of the corps laid claim to the entire history of the Brigadiers, they were a completely new group in terms of competition. That history didn't give the 1997 Brigs one iota of momentum coming into the season, but the steady climb from 1992 to 1996 did.

"The Bucs write a Full Ensemble book, not three separate books, blah, blah, blah." Who cares? You mentioned how hard the music is/was, and I'm telling you that I played several brass books harder than that '05 book, before and since. Yes, the '05 Bucs played extremely well, enough to win the brass trophy going away that night, but they haven't done it since. (Yes, I know, tied in '07, but they weren't better than everyone else in those years.) Ah, this tired argument again. Nothing the Bucs accomplish will make this silly claim go away, will it? I am as offended now as I was in the band room at Twin Valley listening to you folks trying to denigrate another corps for "buying" championships. Sorry, didn't happen! No, it's not. Pittsburgh is further from upstate NY than from Reading. Many more folks I knew in Brigs/ES/Cru were further than the PGH folks are from Bucs, and that is the furthest distance of any of those you named. (except for Seattle, whatever difference that makes.) Those corps couldn't call a Friday rehearsal like Bucs can. I drove further to Reading than almost everyone in that corps, and my 3-hour commute was way shorter than it had been in the other corps, and there were many folks who were even further than that. How did you measure your data, David? I measured it by how much I stood around versus how much I was running back to my spot. I was there. Trying to call me on a bogus "scientific" question isn't going to trump my experience. I've already praised the Bucs for their system, as I experienced it. What more do you want? I don't know about most everyone else, but I've said on DCP at different times that "championships are won when the stands are empty". Yes, I borrowed that phrase from elsewhere, so I don't claim authorship, nor do I own that particular insight. But, I do recognize its relevance, as do many others, I'm sure. So, what now? Do you wish, as TA has mentioned wrt to someone else, for everyone to bow down and proclaim that what Bucs do is "worthy" and what anyone else does is not? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. And what wins is not necessarily what I want to see every Saturday/Sunday during drum corps season. I had more fun watching Bucs than Brigs in 2001. I certainly had more fun watching Hurcs than Bucs in Manassas Park in '08. And, I certainly had more fun playing "Night and Day" than I did "Adagio" in '05, but that wasn't the music's fault, was it?

I can say it because I was there. And you weren't.

The 2001 DCA Finals featured two fine corps, with completely different strengths. I loved telling each group my view of the 2001 Finals (and listening to them try to counter me). If Bucs'd had 20 more brass, they'd have trampled the Brigs. The Bucs' show had much more nuance and expression to it. The Brigs were much more powerful and talented than the Bucs; they just plain overpowered the Bucs. The Bucs were "David" to the Brigs' "Goliath". Only, "Goliath" was too strong for "David" that time. The Bucs also benefited from the "Anybody But Brigs" sentiment that had already taken hold. Other than that, no one else could/did come so close to the Brigs during their '99-'02 run. As compared to Bucs '05-'08, it's a tougher call. From '99 to '02, the second/third/fourth place corps were: Bucs/Statesmen/MBI, Cabs/Bucs/Statesmen, Bucs/Cabs/Statesmen, and Statesmen/Bucs/MBI - 4 different corps. From '05 to '08, it was(is) Statesmen/Bush/Brigs, Statesmen/Bush/Cabs, Cabs/Statesmen/Bush, and Hurcs/Cabs/Statesmen - 5 different corps. If a champion's quality can be determined by the quality of its competition, then maybe Brigs win by an eyelash, just because they had to fend off a slightly tighter field over the years. Yes, their models are way different. I think the Brigs were the more exceptional corps because what they did was so unexpected. From 1997 until 2004, that corps never placed lower than 2nd. That's 8 seasons, after only being in existence for 6 years prior. Don't forget, before their first title, Brigs' best finish was 6th. No one had ever seen a four-peat in DCA before. Bucs just completed their 50th anniversary season, had won DCA 4 times prior, and, before winning in 2005, had been not lower than 5th in the prior 7 seasons.

With the caveat "Unless things have changed from the beginning of '05 until now"... I would say that Bucs drill would equal or top any others. But not the music, at least based upon what I was given in all the brass lines I've stood in. Even 00-01 Cru was harder. As for talent level, the best brass line I've ever been in was '03 Brigs, even though I've been in more balanced lines from the top talent to the bottom. Bucs practice a lot more than the other corps I've experienced, but their membership is more local than those other corps', so they can expect that. They need that time because of the "inefficiency" their communication style requires. However, the staff there communicates much more information much more usefully to the members. As a result, the corps can clean its program to a much higher degree than any other corps I've seen. Other corps do more running; Bucs do more listening. So, their "down" time is higher, but their result is better. Therefore, in terms of average effort per minute, Bucs is not the highest I've seen. In terms of average result per minute even, they might not be the best, but with the total minutes they put in, the final result is what counts, and they've been the best for the last several years, 2008 inclusive. Talent in the staff can overcome lack of talent in the membership. After all, aren't many people here from the day when everyone was taught by rote? People who didn't know a lick of music theory won championships. How? Better teachers taught them than who taught the competition. Preparation is key, as many people here have mentioned, and all will agree that the Bucs come prepared. It's not a matter of who worked harder or whose program is the hardest. "Hard/er/est" doesn't win. "Most talented" doesn't even win. "Prepared" wins. "Prepared" means the design is top-notch and finalized, the teachers and teaching program are in place, the members are aware of their responsibilities and well-rehearsed in their tasks.

I second this. I saw them yesterday. Even saw that CV & MCL had scores, but Alliance was in EXH. Now, it shows CV & MCL with 0's.

Do I read this poll the same way everyone else does? Do 39 people (at this time) really think that the Bucs WILL lose at least once this season? Against 44 who say that Bucs will NOT lose? (That group includes me, BTW.) Or did the YES people read the poll differently to say that, yes, the POSSIBILITY exists but it won't necessarily happen. ('cuz to me that's what the "maybe" option is for - or is that really a "NOT SURE" response?) A Gallup poll this is not.

I dispute the statement that the Bucs have a work ethic "unmatched in DCA". Lots of corps work as hard, or harder even. I will not dispute that the Buccaneers know how to clean their program to the nth degree - and that, I believe, is the not-so-secret of their success. It helps to have some darn good designing going on out there too. The rest of it is the members' dedication to upholding the corps' standards. The Bucs' 2004 season was the earthquake that created the tsunami that's still running high. They're riding the crest of the Big Wave. Who knows how far inland it will crash before it begins receding? Doesn't seem like 2008 is the end to me. Can anyone beat them this year? I suppose, but that will take a mighty effort. Methinks a superhuman one, thus my "No" vote above. And since the poll requires a selection in the second part, even if you vote non above, I chose Hurricanes. They got enough mojo, but the question is: Do they have enough time to clean their program well enough to beat the Bucs? I still say not this year, but I'm willing to be wrong.

I thought it might be better done at the one (and only) rest stop on I-95 in Delaware. If you climb on top of the bldg and speak loudly enough, they might hear you in 3 states at once (DE, MD, & PA). Heck, use a bullhorn and they prob will hear you in NJ too.

We performers all know that no two performances are duplicates of one another. That's why we take these scores and rankings based on them with a few thousand grains of salt: short of head-to-head performances, we'll never really know why and how the numbers really will shake out in the end. Even over the course of a long Prelims session, we can't ever wring out the small inconsistencies that creep into trying to compare two different groups performing two different programs separated in time. Judges are only human. We ask them to rank first and rate second. So, while placings in a show should be pretty certain, spreads are less so. My bet is, even though at Chambersburg Bucs had a spread of 16 points or so over White Sabers, say, that come Prelims, the spread (given equal performances) probably will be more than that, just because there are so many more corps that will come between them, both in performance times, and in scoring differentials. When some strange inconsistencies (like corps being seeded higher than others that they had never beaten head-to-head) came out in Prelims seedings in '00, '01, & '02. I advocated using a head-to-head system instead of scoring average system, since absolute scores are less important than spreads, which are less important than ordinals. DCA has tinkered with the averaging (and since changed to a best-of) system, since the vagaries of our ever more de-centralized DCA make a head-to-head system ever more impractical to implement. So, we still use the absolute score (from different contests) to be the proxy for a single, all-inclusive contest. This puts more demand on judges and judging to "get it right" as Sal has requested, and the system in place (along with any system we could possibly devise) cannot meet those demands. We view these rankings as a way to guage the current relative placements of the corps, but we all know: A) these are snapshots, not predictions; B) these have inherent errors; and C) our biases will still create subjective analyses of the season to date, as well as for the near future. In short, it's a way to collect small bits pertinent info in one place, and and it provides a small bit of fun every Monday for the next few weeks. Enjoy! (but keep your pants from wadding up!)

Bolded: Hmmm..... That's very interesting. Although, given how low MCL's score is (lower than they got at Manassas Park, 3 weeks earlier) I'm not sure how solid the 'Bama DCI scores for DCA corps are. However, until everyone goes head-to-head, this is the best info we've got. As I predicted (not that it was a huge task, or anything) the race for second is tight, with 6 corps in a 4.5 range. Kilties are a nice surprise, with 2 scores this weekend solidly in the high-70's-to-80 range. Most curious is White Sabers' 6 point jump in one week. So: Was Endicott too low? Was Chambersburg too high? Or did they suddenly kick it in gear? In any case, good job, Dansville crew. Overall, lots of interesting aspects to this year's DCA race. As others have noted, the Renegades & Minnesota always keep the pot bubbling because they don't come up against the other powers until Prelims. (esp 'Gades, since they are otherwise done with their comps.) With so many A corps in various regions, they have little idea of how they actually stand either. The old-timers may have a different opinion, but it seems to me this an awful lot like the early 70's junior corps, where the regional contests kept everyone in the dark about how Nats were going to look until everyone actually met (whether VFW/AL or early DCI). That is, until national touring brought all of them together most of the time, or at least very regularly. Even so, DCI isn't always easy to figure out. And, other than one corps here, most everyone else is probably within at least a couple of spots to their final placements, but nothing is very clear yet.

I have pretty strong memories of the 1986 Garfield Cadets (defending champs, no less) running in the 10-12 spots mid-season, moving up to 4th at Finals. At DCE Champs in mid-July, Spirit smoked the Cadets (who barely beat 27th Lancers). IIRC, the DCE show was on July 18 or 19. Spirit scored 84-85, Cadets 80, and 2-7 had a 79.something. By the end, Spirit finished 6th and 2-7 was 13th.

There have been folks on here who have explained the exact rationale for Class A in DCA, but if I may try to distill that down to a sentence or two: Class A was created to give start-up corps and corps that struggle to maintain members a way to have a goal that's attainable. The Classes are only separate for the purposes of who gets into Finals, and even then it's not a lot of separation: The Top 10 scoring corps (of ALL corps) in Prelims are Open Finalists. Then, the other corps that qualify (between 35 & 65 members, inclusive) and DECLARE that they are in Class A by the deadline (June 1), also have a chance to qualify for the (now) Top 4 of that Class for a separate Finals competition. Other than that, there is no separate competition, there are no separate sheets. For every show during the season until Prelims, all corps compete on the same level. I think the major/minor league baseball analogy is valid from this point of view: most Class A corps are new corps. (The main exceptions are Govenaires, which is the oldest corps in terms of sheer age - though not in DCA competition - and White Sabers.) They are trying to gain (or regain) major league form. Most Open corps are long-established corps, with decades of experience. (The main exceptions are Renegades & Corps Vets - and Music City.) As with any analogy, it isn't perfect, but it works. (Although, it also conjures up DCI's current catch phrase "Marching Music's Major League", which gives me the willies.)

Sure, it's their call. I'm not opposed to them making that call themselves. I said so above. Just that, let's remember, they're not annointed the Class A title (though it's a good bet that they'll win it) after Prelims.The original question and subsequent points all assumed that this corps has ONLY 2 options: win Class A or take 10th place. In fact, it's conceivable that they could be 9th (or higher) in Prelims, and 9th (or higher in Finals). Does 9th confer any advantage over 10th for this corps? All arguments posed for staying in A Finals hold whatever the low Open placement (and they won't be challenging for Top 5 for sure) is. The only catch is how sure are they about winning the A Title. If 2 or more A corps are around that same score for making Top 10, the one that's in might rather take the sure Top 10 spot than take their chances gunning for the hotly contested A title.

The problem with that scenario is that DCI had a separate Div II competition that crowned Magic Div II Champs, even before the Div I Championships began. And that doesn't even take into account the history DCI had of allowing Div II and III corps to participate in Div I Championships. DCA isn't set up that way. And frankly, we don't have the time to do it that way. Yes, DCA could allow the A corps the choice of going on in A Finals or Open Finals. But, knowing how DCA is run, if, after Prelims a Class A corps earned an Open Finals spot, that corps appealed to the voting members that they adamantly wanted to go in Class A Finals instead, the membership may give them their wish. No absolute rules change necessary. Just remember though, that Class A corps isn't GUARANTEED the Class A Championship by virtue of being in the Top 10 scores. They still have to go out in A Finals and EARN that title. It's conceivable that they could decline the Open Finals spot and still LOSE the A title. Now, that would be a big "D'OH!"

<cue nasally ethnic NY accent and wildly waving arms> "Oooooh, Oooooooh, Mr. Kotter! Mr. Kotter!" Do I get included on that "august" list? I remember those guys, Mike Cahill, Ken Mazur, et al. Yes, a tough crowd. Very opinionated, nothing like what we see on DCP nowadays.

Oh, boy, ya gotta love PATransit. Just watch out for those zone fares!

Well, don't forget that James Carville once described PA as "Pittsburgh & Philadelphia, with Alabama in between." Not that I agree philosophically with that man, but he makes a good point of how PA is really THREE states. Philly is very closely related to NJ, while Pittsburgh is very Midwestern in flavor (more like Chicago than East Coast). But the rest of the state bears little resemblance to either. Of course, not only does the "other" portion cover the center, but the entire north as well (making it the infamous "T"). I'm not sure which way Reading falls - toward Philly or toward "Alabama".

You will be VERY pleasantly surprised by Hurricanes. I don't think they can be over-hyped. Endicott usually has a vic concert from the winner. It seems likely that Hurcs will be in that position in Endicott. How long has it been since Hurcs have done one of those? Here's to Hurcs getting their last brass holes filled in and getting that wonderful show ever cleaner. Cru & Brigs will not only go after each other again, but they get to see how they compare to the new Beast of the East. Congrats to Grennies for getting out this season. Here's to a great season debut from the Yellow Team. Also, White Sabers, Fusion Core, and Grenadiers get a good chance to see how they stack up in the Class A race. Even though the 2007 Top 4 will go head-to-head-to-head-to-head for the second straight week in Lewisburg, it seems there may be more drama and excitement in Endicott. I envy the folks going to DCA shows this weekend. Great stuff!

Well, DCA not DCI, but I think that's close enough. I was with one corps for several years, but my experience that last year was not very good, not enough to justify the time and expense of traveling there. I switched to another corps just a bit further away, but now I was catching a ride and not driving myself. It just so happened that this corps was the defending champions (just coming off its 4th title in a row). And, it just so happened that many other fellow members from the prior corps went there too. (I did not know that at the time I made my decision.) We ended up 2nd that year in Finals. (Also, we lost the last regular season show - the first time some members of that corps hadn't won a show - 46 in a row.) I had a blast - and made lots of new friends. I didn't go back because I couldn't afford it. A couple of years later, I had moved to the Wash, DC, area, and decided to join another corps - a pretty good one. They hadn't won in a long time, but they seemed ready for the jump up. I was there all winter, spring, and summer until the first two shows. For various reasons that I won't get into, I quit mid-season, and I joined another title contender (actually the defending champion). The first corps didn't complain at all, btw. My new corps got beat by the other one every show for the rest of the season. I never had so much fun not winning. I relished serenading the other corps on Finals retreat after they won the title, a ring I could've had - but chose not to. My wife has a DCA ring. She loved wearing it for a few months after she got it. Now, it sits in the jewelry box. Didn't change her life any. I say, "Yeah, that and $3.50 [or whatever] gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks." It's the experience, not the hardware. Hardware is nice, but not necessary. As the others have said, my wife agrees - for a while it's special, then it wears off, and nothing else has changed.

Having seen MCL at Manassas Park for a recent DCASouth contest, I heartily recommend to anyone who has a chance to see them: DO IT! They have a great show. Even if they can't improve on their 2007 finish, they're Top 10 in my opinion. BTW, is that Cumberland University the same whose football club lost the most lopsided game in college history, 222-0? (I ask only 'cuz I attended the school that was on the winning side in that contest.)

Both Johns are correct. Leadership is the key quality for this area, and pretty much all other areas lacking drum corps too. In the last 2 years, I have come to the conclusion, thinking about recruiting for AA/DCA corps, that corps are better served focusing their HS recruitment efforts on bands (and esp their recent ALUMNI) in the Festival (or non-competing) class of bands. The elite BOA/PIMBA/USSBA band members will sniff at the recruiting pleas of any (esp new) DCA-type corps. But those who got a taste of performing in the non-competitive festivals for their fans should be more receptive to the allure of participating in DCA. Also, recent alums who enjoyed performing but haven't been out there for a few years go into that category as well. Also, members of the local colleges with decent marching bands (for Western PA, that would be IUP, Duquesne, Rob't Morris, Slippery Rock, and Clarion; for eastern PA that would be West Chester for sure, Kutztown, Millersville, Mansfield, etc.) make good recruiting targets too. Those bands esp should maintain some sort of alumni list. The sacrifice now is a lot more painful than it was 30 years ago. But, a true leader and visionary can pull it off. It takes more connections now to the moneyed interests who can help than it did then too. Good luck with that.