skluyuk

Yep...PC Dad, but also been around the game for a while. The other corps in the Blue Stars, Troopers, Crossmen, Colts, PC grouping have been going head to head for quite some time now. The judges have a better feel for how they (BS, Troop, Xmen, Colts) stack up and elements to listen and watch for in each of the shows. This is the first time most of the judges have seen PC in the mix and it's probably not quite as clear where they fall in that grouping. Technically, judges shouldn't be comparing, rather just scoring the elements on the sheets. However, the very nature of judging one group over another requires some preconception. I don't think this will be fleshed out by San Antonio. I do know that PC is far better than any of their corps that I have seen in the past seven years I have been watching them. They also have a very talented staff who have been in the trenches before and know what they need to do to produce results. I will reserve any other comments regarding PC until after Altanta when there have been enough head to heads for the judges to figure it out.

I predict the following for San Antonio: 1 Crown 2 Blue Devils 3 Cadets 4 Santa Clara Vanguard 5 Phantom 6 Bluecoats 7 Madison 8 Cavies 9 Boston 10 Blue Knights 11 Spirit 12 Blue Stars 13 Pacific Crest 14 Crossmen 15 Troopers 16 Mandarins 17 Colts 18 Academy 19 Oregon 20 Jersey 21 Pioneer 22 Cascades Only for San Antonio...I predict good California representation at Finals!

My son is marching PC this year. I have been impressed by the growth in their sound over the last few years. This years corps has stepped it up even more with a very mature sound and a fairly solid visual show. It will be interesting to see their season unfold and watch them contest with some other very good drum corps for the last couple of spots in Finals. My opnion...The real battle is down in the 11 to 16 realm. Four awesome drum corps who are worthy of a Finals spot will be left out. Whoever wants those last couple of spots bad enough will be working their butts off to get there! One less break for more rehearsal, one better runthrough, one note that has better intonation, one drop that didn't occur, better group esprit de corps...it's going to be so tight that the little things will be the difference that gives the judges the nudge. Go PC! [Of course BD will win! :-P]

PC holds rehearsal at Diamond Bar HS. I think they are having their preview show on June 15th. They go to all days beginning June 8. I think the all days start at Diamond Bar HS and then moves to Chino Hills (Boys Republic HS) on June 13(?).

Another engineer here... Don't ever think that pursuing a passion will hold you back from anything. I marched three years while working toward my first degree and wouldn't trade that time for any internship or preference that might have given me from an employer. The experience is mine forever and to this day, I would step out on the field again if it took me an additional three years to finish. BTW, I would hire someone with an average GPA who marched drum corps over another candidate with a stellar GPA whose entire life was about the grade. Experience dealing with other people and the work ethic involved in perfecting your show would topple that choice easily. R. Matthew Dillon, P.E. '82-'83 Valley Fever '84 Blue Devils (BSME & MSE - Applied Mechanics)

So, correct me if I'm wrong here... 1. TOC is a separate venue that is judged according to rules set up by the 'Top 8' participants. 2. These same corps will participate in DCI events using what has to be a different set of rules for judging. 3. The TOC shows will completely (or nearly) cut out other corps from any possibility of participation and compensation. So, what makes Finals so special again? Seems to me that the 'Top 8' are going to be firmly planted to the point that no other corps will be able to break in. They will not get the finances, exposure, or interest that the TOC corps receive and will therefore probably never get the kind of talent that would allow them to break down the wall. Why is DCI even playing this game? For that matter, why are the other member corps playing the game? Just split up and be done with it. Move on and begin rebuilding drum and bugle corps in the traditional sense (e.g. battery, brass, pit, guard). No woodwinds, limited use or no amplification, actual bugles (G, p/r, limited valves, although modern marching brass is OK I guess), local kids in local corps, teaching kids who have never picked up a horn or drum how to play and march....I digress. For me, the simplicity is what made this activity well liked by the masses. Broadway shows on the field are cool too, but they don't impact the number of lives that the hundreds of local DBC units have over the years. People are more proud of their kids on stage than any professional group at a local performance. We've lost our way...advancing the art at the expense of the traditional intent does not seem equitable. When there is a fork in the road, pick a direction and press on. If that means the travelers split up, so be it.

Sorry. I should have used a [sacrasm] [/sarcasm] tag. I just think those who are on staff and do get paid well should really be appreciative of the kids who are willing to work for the experience. Those who don't get paid or get paid little are doing it for the love of it. I'm willing to bet that when the time comes, most of them walk away feeling enriched rather than cheated.

Garfield...this was said 'tongue in cheek.' It was a bit facetious and intended to highlight the fact that without the performer, all expectations of greater compensation for staff just float away. I fully understand the selfless devotion and passion one must have to participate in our activity. Our pay as performers was/is the experience of wailing away on the field, blowing people away, and taking in all of the cheers and applause of 10's of thousands of people on their feet!

It's a matter of perspective GUARDLING. I understand your point. Very talented people have put lots of blood sweat and tears into developing this activity and continue to push it to new levels of excellence. They rightfully claim a bit of ownership and along with that an expectation of reward. My perspective is that maybe they have grown beyond what should reasonably be expected as compensation for a non-profit youth organization. This activity is not a business. A business is established to garner profit. Although it can be run in a business-like manner, all proceeds must be turned around and somehow reinvested into the organization to support the core objectives. If there is a huge staff with a high payroll that must be maintained, that leaves less money for what should be the real focus; providing youth with an opportunity to have some life experience through their talents as musicians and athletes. As an example, I give contributions to several charities. There are many organizations that do the same type of work that I choose to support, but I am careful about which one I send the donation. If they are paying office staff and management 85% of what I send and only the remaining 15% goes out to the cause, that is rather inequitable. I don't want my money going to pay for salaries, I want it to go toward cancer research, or education, or helping a kid go on tour. Now if I am buying a product, (say tires for my truck), I don't expect that business to just be available for me at no cost. They should be compensated for providing service and being available when I need them. The level of profit is a balancing act between expenses and reward. Even then, the profit that they make needs to be reasonable, or I'll go find another shop with better prices. Drum and Bugle Corps is not a product, it is an experience. Without all of those kids who work their butts off to make the talented developers dreams come true on the field, they have nothing. These kids are being forced to pay more and more each year for the 'experience.' Granted, it is a life-changing experience that stays with us, but if the activity is to survive into the future, there needs to be a reasonable expectation of how much of the available funds should go toward administration and staff. Maybe we should start paying the performers. They are the ones who put it on the line at showtime and draw the crowds to the stadiums. Without them there is no show and hence no need to have any staff at all. Balance...that's all I am saying. And make sure that balance leans toward the focus (e.g. the youth).

Now that is something with which I can agree. Restriction on salaries/staff would bring the activity back into synch with being a non-profit youth oriented experience. I don't think what the G7 has proposed is unreasonable. They simply should not being suggesting that this be done at the expense of the greater drum corps community. If the incredibly talented professionals who are involved with the upper echelon corps cannot find satisfaction within the bounds of a non-profit activity, there is a big entertainment world out there to test. They don't have to leave the activity, just realize that "non-profit" drum corps will never afford the opportunities of a Hollywood or Nashville environment. I could be wrong....didn't Michelle Obama make millions as a board member for some non-profits?

Preach it, Bruda! That's the way I remember our competitions! Face to face, we're going slam you down and knock the wind out of you night after night! Get mad at yourselves for not MAKING them give you the perfect score and work your #### off! Great stuff! Gotta root for the California corps to once again dominate the top!

Your right. It's just gut feel assumptions based on interaction over the years with a gambit of personality types. If you have some insight, please share G. What leads you to say conclusively that the G7 are breaking apart and not in agreement with each other?

I'm not convinced at all that the G7 proposal is dead. I have no real insight into what the G7 BOD's are actively planning, but it's clear they have a vision for where they want to go. It seems to me that they aren't abandoning anything. I don't see any tucked tails. Just the opposite. Right now, the G7 are focused on the 2010 season competition. That is an all consuming effort when the kids are out on the road on tour. There is no evidence to show they have back-pedalled from their plan. They are busy with the season. The fact that the Cavies director was present at the DCI meeting means nothing more than he wants to be informed and know what is going on, what the general sentiment is, whether the G7 proposal was given any consideration. Knowledge is power. To me, it is evident that change is going to happen one way or another. When 7 of the top performing groups band together in an alliance that's a pretty strong signal. People don't like change because it is unfamiliar and causes hardship. It benefits some and is detrimental to others. These things work themselves out.

I agree with the principle of your statement. However, these corps (whether you are angry with them or not because of the propsal) are literally the faces you see on the DCI posters. I can't think of a single poster where BD, Cadets, Cavies, SCV, BC, CC, or PR are not the principal visual focus of the advertisement. Well...now I think you are just messin' with me. Seriously, Nike doesn't dump huge amounts of advertising money into some no-name-recognition guard from the Minnesota Timberwolves (12-70 this year). They give it to 'LeBron' or 'Kobe'. The best. Also, if there is a choice of a clinic given by a G7 group or Pioneer, there is really no contest. No disrespect to Pioneer. They have set an achieveable mission for themselves and are active every year. I think that the G7 could spinoff some ageout groups that hit the road during band camp season and throughout the fall mb season that might be very successful. Whether they do that in a profit or non-profit status is a business decision. Don't forget my statement about 'separate and distinct'. It's clear and almost outright stated in the proposal that the OC will have to fend for themselves. From the proposal: "Corps are independent. We need to care for ourselves." "No real service offered." "No vote." I think the real issue here is that the G7 feel they have put in the blood sweat tears to claim ownership of DCI. The owner of any business can make whatever decisions they want including an increased take of the profit and trimming the fat so to speak. Problem with that is that DCI is not a business. It is a non-profit organization supporting non-profit organizations. In addition, it supports 24 WC voting member non-profit organizations in addition to however many OC corps are sanctioned by DCI. The decision to allow this or not is still within DCI's hands. The G7 still only have their votes (not the 2x vote proposed). They are outnumbered. If they want to affect change to reinforce their 'ownership', that can only be done by swaying the majority. That would mean several voting members would have to vote for something that is not in the best interest of their organization. I just can't see them doing that. America is the greatest country on Earth. The G7 have the liberty to work things out within DCI or leave and doing something else. I would go watch them. I would (and do) attend a regional show too. The world will not end either way unless the Lord says it's time.

How about 'sensitive' as in 'pouring salt into the non-G7 corps open wound'? Keep in mind that before a couple of days ago, I could care less what 'G7' even referred to and then I thought I would go check it out. Even reading through the proposal, there is nothing that is outrageously surprising knowing who was involved in formulating the approach. I don't understand what you mean by 'leaps'. I opened up discussion on some potential avenues that could be taken by these really outstanding drum corps to generate further revenue. The discourse is completely outside of anything contained within the proposal as I later stated (use whatever words you would like). It just so happens, that now that I have read the material, several of the things I suggested are similar in nature. The biggest difference between what I opened up to discuss and what is in the G7 proposal is that they want to take away from the corps that comprise DCI to benefit themselves in a rather unequitable manner. It is not unreasonable for them to ask for a little bigger piece of the pie. What they want to do is pretty much keep the whole pie and feed scraps to the dogs. The approach that I was advocating is to take the well trained talent that is available with the hundreds of ageouts, and explore forming several performing groups, training groups, clinician groups, etc. Begin developing an audience and clientele. Make it profitable through sales, sponsorship, etc.! Return some of that profit in support of the non-profits. Heck if Tiger Woods can get paid millions of dollars to endorse Nike, why can't the marching arts equipment mfgs pony up some cash? These groups would operate entirely out of the bounds of DCI. Seems reasonable for the G7 to pool that talent to form these groups and share any gains equitably. I would like to answer your question about my '08 post, but I don't quite understand what you are asking. If you would restate it, I will do my best to provide a response.

Your response is the most reasonable to what I have written. It is a rational argument against what I suggested (which really is not a directly related to the G7 proposal). I think your perspective on branching out beyond the non-profit may be limited. An alumni group is not even in the field of view for what I was discussing. I am thinking of something that goes above and beyond the BLAST! template. With the talent available in the G7 corps, they should be able to dream something up that we have not even thought of yet. Near term, I think you are correct. Long term maybe not. BLAST! did not happen overnight either. There is some opportunity to at least explore the option.

I have now downloaded and read through the G7 Proposal. Looks like I was not far off in my assumptions. I used some similar language regarding 'pay for level of effort' in the OP. The thing that surprises me a bit is the degradation and outright exclusion of some very good drum corps (BC, BK, BS, GM, Spirit, and so on) from TOC. The proposal states in numbers that the AAA corps are >4x more valuable than the AA ($12500/$3000) who are only worth 1.25x ($3000/$2400) that of the class A corps. Presumably this is because of all the coordination and effort the top seven will have in putting together their TOC production. The tone of the proposal is much like an ultimatum. "If approved... If not...", "Must happen... If not..." I understand the motivation but don't believe for a minute that the approach is in the absolute best interest of the activity. I would venture that this plan will further separate those who are the best from the greater drum corps community and pretty much squash any real competitive threat from those outside that exclusive club.

Wow...you guys are really uptight. The operative word in soccerguys post is 'defending'. As I said, I am not defending anything, simply trying to add discussion to the fiscal perspective.

Where do you see that in my posts? I'm am not defensive about anything. You should read things all the way through and with a little less bias. I'm simply adding some discussion to this topic with a bigger picture perspective (e.g. ideas for financial solvency). I think my post was on topic. Sorry if it is not.

No disrespect intended. Love all of them. I am so far West that everything is pretty much East of me. I keep forgetting that to the MidWest and East folks everything on this side of the Mississippi is 'West'.

That is definitely one area for ageouts to participate. However, you missed the point. Sorry I was not more explicit. Please read my response above with some clarification.

Didn't say that. Didn't say that. Definitely didn't say that! Well...I kind of said that. Keep in mind that there are probably not too many of the 1E4's out there that would do the kind of performance a G7 spinoff might do. They would be unique which is why they would have a draw. Kind of like Blue Man Group. Well...at least you have that 'BEST in DCI' part right.

Lol...apparently this is a touchy topic. There is nothing in my post to suggest I have read a single word of the G7 proposal. Matter of fact is that I have only read the press releases discussing the concept. I do not address a single word of the proposal anywhere in the OP. It did not appear in any of the preceding discussion that anyone had really considered what might be some of the motivating factors for these corps. Maybe I should have started a new thread. There is also nothing in my post to suggest that the G7 should leave DCI or that they should empty the <21yo talent pool. Matter of fact I suggested that they might consider branching out and play both sides of the for profit and non-profit fence. Don't even get me started on woodwinds in drum corps...please! Old School here! So, keeping the above in mind, let me clarify my perspective a little. The G7 corps are successful. They have been for many years and will continue to be because their management puts effort into insuring their future financial position. That position is threatened by competition with the outside world. For example, the Blue Devils recently had to mount a serious campaign to keep a for-profit bingo operation from opening up right down the road from their own bingo hall. I can't imagine that they will be able to suppress competition like that for very long. In order to develop a fundraising venue that is sustainable, it appears that the G7 are looking for a way to do that within the DCI structure. Again, I have not read the proposal, just the concept, but it looks like they want a bigger piece of the pie. IMO, rightfully so. They put the time, effort, and money into becoming the big draw. However, if the G7 eat most of the (already small) pie, the rest of DCI is left sharing the remainder. Not a good situation all around. It creates a bigger gap between the haves and have nots and would probably be the Genesis of an ultimate demise. Sometimes you just have to give your kids a little bigger piece of pie so they aren't starving. If you can put ice cream on it, even better! What I was attempting to suggest in the OP was a method of developing a sustainable revenue in support of the non-profit drum and bugle corps operation. Let the age-outs branch out into a new performing arts venue. Something they could perform on stage. Maybe that is a BLAST! kind of thing, or a Cirque du Soleil, or a professional clinic group that travels the country during the marching band season to provide training and critique. Whatever that may be, it would be something in which the G7 has the market cornered. How many performance groups traveled the world to do the stage version of 'Phantom of the Opera'? How many BLAST! groups traveled around the world doing their gig? How many Cirque du Soleil groups are there out there? Probably more than one is my guess. Why not let the ageouts make a little money doing what they love while taking some of that stage show profit and dumping it back into the non-profit DBC. Contract with Disney, Universal Studios, Las Vegas casinos, Six Flags, different city performing arts centers, etc. etc. etc. Have the equipment suppliers pay these groups to use their equipment and adverstise for them. Have sales people for the equipment follow them around the world and make sales with a certain percentage going back to the DBC. Just sayin...I understand the strong survival of the fittest perspective, but there are other things that the G7 has available to consider before outright monopoly. Regarding the bridge...I would like to verify the deed before finalizing the sale.

I haven't looked at any recaps, spoken with any judges, or done any kind of research to see where they are placing in music, but this hornline is impressive to me. What a great full sound they have. I'm usually pretty snobby about the brass sound, but in my opinion, there is a top 12 hornline coming out of Diamond Bar. Very nice PC. Your projection and overall presentation at the Paramount show was on a par or better than that of the Academy (who are also very impressive...big fan). I thought the overall score the judges awarded was much lower than it should have been. Press on. Would love to return to the days when the West filled up four of the top 12 spots!

I'm new to this whole G7 discussion, <job interference with my drum corps browsing and all> but I am not surprised by this at all. The G7 corps have been building very strong organizations over the last couple of decades. So much so that they are consistently able to attract the absolute best talent in the 17-21 age group to perform in this venue. They have strategically saturated and dominated the marching arts market with their name brands and worked diligently to get a product out there for consumption by the literally thousands of marching band programs around the United States (and Japan/Europe for that matter). The corps obtain sponsorship from major equipment suppliers (Yamaha, King, Dynasty, Jupiter, Pearl, Zildjian, FJM, Dickies, on and on...) who froth at the teeth to let the G7 corps show the consumers what can be done with their products. Then the G7 go out and hold clinics to market for their sponsors. These clinics both train the kids and create a desire to participate in this great activity. Sell it Baby!!! That's just smart. Become profitable and you are no longer bound to the limitations associated with being a 501c organization. This is the writing on the wall. All of the G7 organizations are well rounded. BD has the Diablo Wind Symphony, WGI, DCI, BDE programs, along with System Blue. Garfield (YEA!) has the DCI, WGI, USSSA, clinics, etc. CC has DCI, WGI, clinics, etc. And so on.... For these organizations to work together is a brilliant strategy. They cover every corner (and the creamy center) of the United States. Is it really that much of a stretch to think that they will not branch out (in some manner) into the profitable world? It could be 'BLAST!' -like or something else that they dream up. How many of us who performed wouldn't have given their left...thumb to have the opportunity to continue performing?! I could totally see the expansion of this new performing arts venue beyond the the 'non-profit' training grounds of DCI. That means the G7 could play on both sides of the fence as long as there were a separate and distinct venue for the post-ageout era. It would be no different than Bill Cook's Transportation company help fund Star. What a great way to allow ageouts (with the incredible training and talent that exists) to continue pursuing growth and push the envelope of possibilities for this sport. And what a great way to maintain the solid financial foundation required to operate a fully touring drum and bugle corps. Not to mention the number of non-performer jobs (CEO, CFO, Marketing Directors, Artitic Directors...) that would be created to support the for profit groups. Just my two-cents. Rambling done....