wayback

I marched rifle for Sky Ryders in '80

I guess your right (re this individual's post). I stand corrected. I guess it would be more accurate to say that people seem to look for some reason why their favorite corps didn't win or place as they desire - something other than the corps performance (which they deeply believe was the best). "Maybe it was this, maybe it was that". Only some fans go so low as to posit slotting. I'm not singling out the Cadets, either - I said "every year". Every corps has it's hard years, & I'm sure every fan shares this impulse to some degree. I also honor the LOOOOONG tradition of excellence that the Cadets represent (which started LOOOOONG before Hopkins came into the picture, and will hopefully last LOOOOONG after he's moved on up to ?) I have no axe to grind AGAINS'T anyone. I loved the Cadets back in the day when they were placing 13th. I just think that the end of the season should be a time to remember what's important about the activity, and it isn't a ring (IMHO). I'm pretty sure the individual Cadets all came away from the season fulfilled, & glad they marched. I think it does them a disservice to focus on the politics. DCP opinions are skinny trees, & their lives will hopefully develop into a dense forest. The end of the season is a time to look at the forest.

I find it so amazing - every year we see this thread. "My favorite corps lost because *put your consiracy theory here*". If you want to walk away from the season focusing on your frustration, on your disappointment, that is your choice. To me, that's like writing a beautiful poem, and ending it with a big turd for a period. If fans of the "slotting" theory really believe that DCI is so corrupt, the judging so inept, why do you care who wins? wouldn't winning be meaningless anyway? Satisfaction, fulfillment, pride - these things come to those who focus on what's important. Looking back (wayback) on my time in corps, the numbers don't define my experience. I almost hope that the 4-7 corps stay there next year, & leave fans of the top 3 to bicker and whine. BTW - Congrats, SCV on another great season. I'm confident that all those kids had a year that they will always treasure. SCV is SCV, always! (regardless of placement), & that tradition of class is something that doesn't depend on DCI or the judges, or anyone else - it's an ethos they generate from within the organization. I know many others must feel the same way about their corps - I'm sure it's not JUST SCV - but I will alway be thankful that I learned that lesson there. Just handle your business, and you win. You judge yourself, in the end.

Diaghalev (sp?) later admitted that many of the people who started the "riot" on that night were plants. The "riot" caused a sensation that assured that the work would have a long run. It ended up making Stravinsky's international reputation, & he lived off that (and his obvious mastery, of course) for the rest of his life. This brings me to a question - did Mr Hopkins do this to enhance the narrative of the season? Isn't it more intereesting than Cadets making a quarters, semis, finals sweep? I raise this question because he/they seem to act like DCI is there to serve the Cadets, rather than the other way around. I believe it may be a classic "wag the dog" situation. Many seem to feel that Hopkins sees DCI as a sub-unit of YEA!; that what's good for them is good for the activity - in fact, that they ARE the activity.(or at least they define the qualities that all other groups should emulate, without question). If DCI penalizes them (rightly so), it doesn't look so obvious that they already knows who will be on top (not because of "slotting", but just becaus Cadets have been dominant all season - they have the show this year). He's trying to make it more exciting.

I love it, George... Old-timers (here on DCP) who check how many posts you have on this little chat board, then decide if your opinion is valid. If this is "your" board, sounds like you set it up so YOU could be the arbiter. I've been around awhile, & I agree that corps still has a lot to offer. However, I think it's ridiculous to read the massive volume of posts re "the problem with drum corps" & think that there's no problem. To then attack anyone who expresses that opinion (telling them, in essence, "you shouldn't say that on my board - that's not what it's for") is kinda childish; like holding your hands over your ears. I think the problm is not the rules changes or amps or... I think the corps are more alike now then ever. Less eccentricity, less local flavor, fewer home-grown staff/members & more hired hands & imports. They all have a single vision. consolidation. (ps remeber how some - not me - used to make fun of Stanley's seattle corps? now they ALL wear little jumpsuits & jazz run. kinda funny)

scores, scores, scores. If it's a sport, then obsess about the score if it's music, listen & enjoy if it was Art (which it isn't, I think), then a number is meaningless, ridiculous I think ALL the judging is highly subjective (beginning of the season/end of the season...east or west) putting a number on a complex, quasi-creative effort like a drum corps show is always gonna be a matter of opinion arguing/obsessing about the scores is for people who are not involved in DOING, perhaps, and need to feel "involved" somehow.

It depends on what you want to do with a major in composition. Do you really mean arranging? or writing "marching music" ?(kind of an oxymoron, compositionally speaking) It sounds more like you need to clarify your goals, not find a double major. I believe that if you are any kind of composer, you won't want to be a band director, or have anything to do with marching band. If you are any kind of band director, you won't have the time to really be a composer.

His resume'? I think the Bugler's HOF has a little bio personally? I was fortunate enough to watch him work with Sky Ryders in '80 & '81. Then I was with SCV in '82, & they came west on tour... every night for that entire tour (including when BD was in attendance), goosebumps and hairs-on-end were the order of the day for all the other brassmen when Sky played Larry Kirschner's arrangement of "Here's That Rainy Day" - reserved and rich throughout, & the bottom... oy. For that time, I think they had the best contra section going. They were monsters (like a wall of Samoan linemen), & I think they were the 1st with the giant bell King contras. I heard his sound follow him. I think the most unique feature of drum corps - the thing that makes it essentially different from marching band - is the oral tradition of teaching brassmen in the arc. The bugler's art is different than what is taught in music school/conservatory/German symphonic tradition, in the manner of teaching at least, & I don't know how much of it survives. I am not knowledgable about current drum corps. Sandra Opie, Frank Dorritie (sp?), Tim Saltzman (very different, but also amazing. student of Chicago Symphony's Jacobs)

any John Simpson horn line

I am a proud SCV alum and a music snob, who thinks the musical potential of the all brass and drum (all acoustic, thank you) ensemble has just been hinted at, thus far I honor the Bluecoats. I think you guys are great, and deserve every point you've gotten (and yes, perhaps more because of the instant cred given to the Cadets & King George). Quality. Consistency. Class. A true champion-level group. I'm sure the active vanguard admires that fat sound. It would be no shame to lose to Canton. I'm keepin' my fingers crossed for an inspiring display of heart by both SCV & Bloo (4th & 5th - either way).

ALL the groups are so incredibly talented this year I think the story is shaping up to 4-6 this year and it couldnt happen with out "Crazy George" (It makes me regret some of my trollier than thou postings over this season) I'm an old old old man apples and oranges , huh (see Madison f---in" alumni) Go SCV GR is smiling

I'd love to see Bloo AND SCV move up! as an SCV fan, who has now seen their Bloo's show for the first time this year, and the Cadets for the first time since early on... BLOOOOOOO! VAAAAANNNNNGGGGGUUUUUAAAAARRRRRDDDDD! (and even I think Cadets have improved a lot - not my cup of tea, but I see where their going with it) (fingers crossed for tomorrow night) PS Madison alums rock

I don't think it matters that much I think landing 5th would be a huge psychological victory for the organization I think this late season push shows how much heart the kids have this year I think Jeff (hey Jeff! go section leader!) and his staff have done a great job and should be incredibly proud. I just want them to get up close to Cadets & take 4th in total GE.

If you're a Serge fan, check out the score to the new "Pirates" movie. "Good composers borrow, great composers steal" (Stravinsy)

Uh..... thanks philly I'll have to thank my vet "friend" for passing that apocrypha on to me (Why I otta...) I was a SoCal transplant (one of a few at that time) and got some ribbing early on, I guess he was having one over on me.

This is a good topic. I think it would be interesting to somehow cross index 2 poll questions: Are you "pro-amp"? and Are you "pro big pit"? My thesis is that we would find that, contrary to popular belief, those who are "anti-amps" are mostly "pro- big pit" (ie not cavemen). Is it just me? It seems contradictory, but that's the way I would answer those 2 questions, so go figger. I LOVE the richness of the big pit, but I like the acoustic sound of a big pit. (I assume that the "pro-amp" crowd also likes the big pit - do we ALL love the big pit mostly?) I'm no technocrat, so clue me in - do the rules mandate marching drums? limit the size of the pit, drum line, or horn line? If not, these basic ratios seem like an area that is fertile ground for a creative designer to address. Giant horn line/no drums/big pit/small guard, or medium horn line/no drums/giant pit/big guard, or big horn line/giant drum line/no pit/no guard, or... would this be bad?

Uh, I believe you give the rights to the actual digital bit stream you submit as content, not the corps show itself (or any part of it). You are giving YouTube something YOU created and you are not profiting from the transaction, so you haven't commited a crime. If the corps allows you to walk up and tape them warming up in the parking lot (a public place), they are , in effect, transmitting that performance without restriction. You are free to do anything you want with the tape, just not sell it. Furthermore, if you decided to plagerize the musical or visual content of that tape for your own use (ie not for profit) it's my understanding that it is also not a crime. Is their a copyright attorney in the house? ps YouTube is not evil. Corporate Capitalism is evil.

I concur, PeeWee - I heard the same tale I also heard, however, that Sparks/SCV red & green (even the specific shades) were chosen to honor the proud Portugese heritage of the south bay and central coast (they match the Portugese flag). This connection was explained to me by a vet as we practiced on the beach @ half moon bay after the Pescadero Holy Ghost Parade. A memorable moment. I think maybe GR was Portagee? Viva Rinaldo!

Petroushka - right length-ish, lots of variety, lots of nice melodies, even a part with 2 meters at the same time - probably a Phantom show L'Histoire d'Soldat - the Cadets could have a narrator all the way through! amazing trumpet part in the Royal March (I'm writing something on Igor right now, can you tell?) Suite from "Bat Chain Puller" by Captain Beefheart? hee hee

A few points, not specifics about the Cadets show, just observations about the thread (and its ilk) - There are people who naively equate complexity ('a lot going on') with depth of design. Anyone who does not agree is labelled a simpleton (by the likes of gOat, who is obviously holding complete dosiers on all of us). So Stravinsky is superior to Satie, Mahler is superior to Mozart, and Boulez is superior to Bach? It just childish. Many would argue exactly the opposite of this view. - The arrogance of the original poster is breathtaking. It seems she thinks if she can just explain it to us, we could join the ranks of the enlightened. ("How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Cadets") We obviously can't see or hear like her. If we don't enjoy it, we must be somehow less capable as people it appears. I will enform my students. - The analogy of the 2 paintings in the museum is classic art-bumpkin nonsense. Has anyone heard of post-modernism? So a DaVinci painting is somehow 'less complex' than a ...mmmmm... Rothko? Which is 'easier', Mr. Art Genius, an Ad Reinhardt painting or a Degas? - she seems to believe that the Cadets are outside DCI - just some group trying to excel using the arbitrary rules given to them by some remote body. Wakey, Wakey, eggs and bakey! Mr.s Hopkins, Fiedler, et al. WROTE THESE RULES. They made the entire activity go their way (for their advantage) and now DCI MUST reward them, or look foolish. They had the juice, but no wisdom. They fell into the same novice traps that catch the ambitious but artistically shallow. They are band directors, not artists. Their aesthetic judgments are not more valid because they run an organization that wins points from other band directors who are not artists. Children crave shiny toys, tinkly noises, and being validated by scores. I'm not putting down competition, but don't equate winning with artistic depth.

How trollish do dis sound? "Does anyone else find that because of our board of directors leadership, visuals are now overemphasized and ALL music is becoming secondary?" This is my opinion. Corps would have to sacrifice their 'top 3' aspirations if they wish to buck the trend and pursue a more musical approach. Music for corps is becoming like music for gymnastics - just kind of...there - a chopped up and glued back together mess, that is actually LESS unified in my opinion than the 'suite-like' structure of older shows (which were actually more abstract, in a way: music without bogus amatuerish attempts at 'program music') No wonder people "don't connect anymore" It's not the fall of the Cavaliers. You're just feeling the inevitible symptoms of withdrawal from your addiction - the childless addiction to cheap novelty. Read these threads - a lot of people are feeling let down as they see how hollow flash can be. "'Tis a gift to be simple..." I've started thinking of Mr.s Hopkins/Fiedler, et al as lowbrow Wagners. Big fish from a tiny pond with delusions of grandeur, ever questing for their semi-pro McGesamptkunstwerk (sp). The grand unified Opus that will prove their GENIUS!!!! Oy! It's such a 19th century played out idea. This idea that more and more visual and technical complexity represent achievement - that's so adolescent. and of course, they have EVERY right to follow that path into it's inevitable dead-end, (and more power to 'em - it sure livens up the board for the troll community) What sucks is, there seems to have been a decision made by DCI to prop this idea up - regardless of the product. The amps squeeeeeeeel and the points keepa flowin'. The entire integrity of the system is undermined, and it's score-fixing - simple as that.

OK, now the scoring is a total sham We are gonna have a corps (probably just 1) that will have a professionally- trained (adult) live sound engineer with no way to "tic" for glitches and a tacit assumtion by the judges that "amps are the future - you get points for that" DCI will never admit that this was a mistake, and they will "support" the Cadets/Hopkins for pursuing it (just to prove that it wasn't a mistake) Does anyone else see the conflict of having an paid-professional adult sound engineer performing as part of this competative amateur youth group? Maybe these DCI guys really are so insular, so clueless about how music works in "the real world", that they don't understand what a good live-sound system is capable of when run by a real engineer. This represents a huge paradigm shift in the activity. Regardless of your opinion about singing, or amps, etc, drum corps has always applied the age limit rules, and this changes that. This also makes money a much greater advantage, because the rules do not adequately characterize what the system should look like. You know that the Cadets can afford a pro and a pro system. This is not fair - DCI are making this up as they go along! It is clear that not only is Hopkins ignorant, but that he was willing to force a rule change on the whole activity for his own benefit - fully realizing his ignorance. Why would we trust these peoples aesthetic choices (re amps/singing/etc) when they have proven both their incompetence and their willingness to blow smoke out their ### to make themselves look like big shots. It's pathetic.

I can't believe madscout hasn't had something snappy to say must be sooo much smarter than me... why do I even go on these whiney threads? I think I'll go have a beer and practice my pedals & multiphonics - so relaxing

My point exactly SF2K4 The BOA kids want to "step up" to a higher level of commitment and intensity, not a higher level of props and synths, when they go to corps That amazing growth of the individual's relationship with his horn and his corps, and the growth of that corps' unique culture, is the bed of growth for corps, not toys and gimmicks

gOat steps bravely up to the soap box to proudly proclaim that the cadets are the forefront, (the far right? oh my - that should give us a hint), the leaders, and that DCI supports their radical push forward into the brave new world of singing/electronics/amps, etc and that all of us who disagree (regardless of our post grad degrees or long years of marching & teaching) are just too closed minded, too provincial to accept change - we should just grow up & shut up - it's George's way or death, right gOat? but then you state that BOA shows are far more advanced, and make the Cadets look traditional. "They aren''t that radical, really - you just haven't seen what I've seen" which is it? Are they radical or traditional? Can they be progressive but also regressive? I don't get it. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth (or somewhere else) I thought you said these are the same kids? Band kids, going to corps, right? Then how can the creativity be relative? Do those band kids go from their BOA bands, and then feel stifled by those nasty DCI rules that don't let them bring their clarinet? Do all mediums have to encompass all possibilities? It just such a shallow examination of what it means to be creative. It's like saying that Mahler's 2nd is less creative than Mahler's 1st, beacause "he had already done one of those already". Or saying a string quartet piece should be followed by a string quartet + marimba, then a string quartet + marimba + narrator, then a string quartet + marimba + narrator + mime,... your logic is the failed logic of big M Modernism. remember? the last century? aesthetics? oh, sorry Your incredibly shallow definition of creativity ("something new" or "pushing the rules") is the approach of an artistic youngster, a cul-de-sac. I don't deny George's right to drive down that cul-de-sac, but I strongly disagree that following george is the only way forward. The Cadets are NOT avant garde - they are using all the trite-est cliche's of post-war modernism - they are NOT musically advanced - they are a drum and bugle corps, and no amount of supposed novelty will make their cheesy expressionism beyond that. If they want to push DCI towards BOA, why don't George, et al make the move to BOA? Then they can have all the shiny objects and tinkle-y technology and woodwinds they want. If they want to make capital A "Art" (as you represent) George and his designers shouldn't be pursuing it at the expense of a youth activity, by using their clout to push DCI into what THEY see as the future. They should have the balls to make art with the adults, in the adult art world, where these more serious issues are handled. Corps is for kids to experience being part of something larger than themselves, not playing out the tired and lame artistic pretensions of someone who's afraid to grow up. If the choreographers & composers and visual artist of the Cadets really are so far beyond what anyone else in the activity is capable of, they would be working in the real world of choreography and composition and visual art, but they are not. So let's keep talk about "Art" and "Creativity" and "Innovation" in perspective, shall we? As for "bashing" - your plea for civility is actually a call for all of us to shut up and stop being critical of the Cadets, 'cause you think they rock. It's OK if you think they rock. Are they good? absolutely! Do I salute those kids? yes (and I'm sure they are being well served by YEA!, which is a model organization - stability-wise) Will they remember this summer for the rest of their lives, regardless of where they place? yes. Isn't THAT the point? Am I impressed by the design? no. (I'll pause and allow you time to call a Cadet, and see if the organization has folded........) OK? are they still there? It's only a forum, where people who have too much time on their hands spout their opinions about an activity that, let's be realistic for a moment, is a mite on a gnats ### on the tip of the tail of the elephant that is American culture. Why would you care if some stranger hates the Cadets? Anyone who really HATES the Cadets, or cares that much about ANY corps their not currently marching in, is pretty pathetic, no? BTW where are you marching this season, gOat?