davla00

---------------------- Why is no amount of cooperation between DCI and DCA satisfactory to you? Because I would much rather listen to the biddies argue about who's fault it is that both activities died, then try and prevent the death beforehand...... Plus we need to keep up the postings on this thread too..... gotta think of the larger picture you know.

--------- Niche activity - - really, think you better talk to some of the older drum corps folks on this forum..... there was a time and a place where every vfw hall, every town had a drum corps, was nearby a drum corps........ It became a niche activity because of the changing times and it has developed to those that can afford to do it in both time and money........

------------ Hey Jeff look - - we have a joint circuit already and we didn't even know it.......................

--------------- So there is a banner at each event, and a posting to the winnner on each others websites ?????? That counts as something ??? Technically it is something, but it is not enough. I am not talking about a pool of horns for those who can't get the idea..... I am talking about pooling the purchasing power and saying to yamaha or whoever - - else we have this many corps, using this many type horns of this kind and so on..... what can you do for us if you become the sole provider or one of the few providers of horns to both circuits and we give you the business... PS - - for those who think they know.... You know what the top 12 corps get for all of that shoe string budget ( If you consider a $5 million dollar budget shoestring, you must work for Bill Gates) they have.... when they go to Yamaha and get a sponsorship - - they get the ability to but the horns at cost. That is it. And since you are obviously not aware of the market basket... I did NOT suggest that there is a monolithic need - - I suggested there are common needs..... and those needs can be better addressed when you put all the needs together and share the power of the budget. --------------- And with that I too crush the ability and hope of these two ever realizing the potential they have together. DCI will become BOA/or Hop's band group, pick your poison And DCA will sputter its way along as the last vestiges of anything remotely close to drum corps. I guess for those hopeless romantics who still see the larger picture we have our DVD sets, or individual drum corps passions and that will be what I pass on.

No circuit buys horns in bulk - - now. But what if they did ? In addition,,,,, can you imagine the purchasing power of 12 top DCI corps with budgets in the $3-5 million range a piece - - even if it isn't food, there are other things that are bought..... where do you think that money gets spent.... they all need uniforms, gloves, horns, supplies, paper goods, etc...... Then add in the purchasing power of the DCA.... You are delusional if you think that there are no shared purchasing needs.

------------------------ Sure we can all log on to the web and see what is what.... But how many take action.... we need to be proactive in keeping people involved in the activity.... That is my point - we are doing NOTHING now between the organizations.... (and I agree with the other poster who said we would most likely keep those that auditioned and failed to make the cut - interested and probably have a higher success rate getting them into DCA).... So if we start to be proactive between the two groups - pool information, collect information from the corps, etc.... establish a formal process for getting those who don't make the cut, some where else into any of the activities mentioned....... it can only be a good thing. NONE of that is happening now. So with just this one little thing, there are others - - that can bring together the groups. You wanted savings - - What about a shared procurement agreement - - one that groups all of the entities (any mini corps, DCA, DCI) and brings their joint purchasing power and puts it out for bid for supplies, food, etc...... travel for judges to host shows..... Cmon - - you can't see that..... But because we are two different groups, two different by laws - - we can't function together to purchase horns, or food, or whatever other need there is..... Not buying it.

------------- Amen.... Neither organization has the strong hold on brilliance...... and IF DRUM CORPS is really what matters then this supposed increased cooperation between the two circuits will lead to even more combination efforts..........It has to be. I respect the numbers that Jeff gave me before, because they are real. But NO ONE can convince me that in these economic times (which at the moment seem to be continuing on the path of tougher times as opposed to better times) that either operation DCA or DCI is projecting substantive growth over the next 10 years. Even in better times, as someone indicated in one of the posts, there is increased competition for time and dollars for these kids and us older kids who do this too....... wouldn't it make sense to preserve the activity in all its forms ????DCI< DCA< parade corps, mini corps, etc....... Wouldn't that be accomplished better by working together, moving things in a circular motion so that those that leave DCI, go to DCA or go to mini corps or one of the other "affiliated activities".... The gentlemen who said creating lists and such wouldn't work - - really ??? How would you know ??? I left the activity after being in a DCI corps for twenty five years..... what if the system had been around and in place that would have said here are your options if you want continue on............ maybe I wouldn't have left ... Who knows ? But if you don't try (which is what DCI and DCA) are doing now by not capturing those that leave DCI and moving them into DCA or DCA affiliated activities...... then you have what happens now... People leave and come back after 25 years. Again, just one idea of furthering "cooperation" as we have come to be PC about on this thread......

--------- I already have been there done that.... SBU wants $$$$$ for the stadium, either a dci or dca bid would not afford it.

---------- I agree with Jeff, some sanity and this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was talking about....... These are the kinds of ideas and this is a GOOD one, that need to be pushed and brought out..... There are dramatic economies of scale that happen when you bring these two groups together........ and lets be honest and bring to the table what setting up a FORMAL system so that when the age outs occur DCI WORKS WITH DCA to create a system whereby you don't lose those people, you capture them and move them on into DCA and find them a place to continue the activity...... And Jeff - I KNOW this doesn't happen now, but with a set up like above, it could .......... Imagine if it did....... DCI gets list of age outs from the corps - - a central office invites them to continue in DCA, providing information on open houses, times, places, etc..... DCA gets lists from DCI and then forwards them to the corps in the areas of the kids who are aging out..... OMG..... we could have continuous flow here..... And this is just one area. Imagine the possibilities for other areas..... AMEN to forcing the issue and thinking out loud people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets keep going.

---------------- Amen to what Liz said....... MORE DRILL BABY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------------------- Thanks for the numbers Jeff and I appreciate the analysis... truly. I am not ready to plead mea culpa just yet, but I give a tiny bit only because I do believe that some increase is better than none - -LOL!!! However you said in your post something that really intrigued me and now I push a button back - - - "now convince them all to share the power when they are trying to be two totally different beasts. you'll never convince Hop, Gibbs, Fiedler etc that senior corps deserve as much power as they do. you'll never convince gruber, gerris, Bruni that they should bow to DCI, and they shouldn't." Knowing some of these people, I will say to you that you are correct. However, ask Hop or any other director that same question, when they can't fill their lines. You can see signs of it happening now every year on DCP, right before the first tour and sometimes during the tour............ sudden openings positions that can't be filled, etc. When reality sets in that the DCI niche, and I am sorry it is an elitist marching activity at the DCI level, has major problems - - which we have again seen signs of already (not just with recruitment, but attendance at shows, dropping donor dollars, money issues galore, etc)............ attitudes will change, they will have to. Several posters have already suggested - - that DCI becomes USSBA or BOA - - in all honesty - that is exactly what will happen. They will have no choice in order to survive. The base moves have been made....... and sharing a home in Indianapolis only makes that future inevitable. I would HATE to see that happen, but it is coming. My driving force behind putting a merger on the table, for at least discussion - - again if it is lousy idea - toss it away and look at something else...... I have no problem with that..... -- - is that DCA and DCI share the drive to keep the activity alive. That is all. DCA and DCI have a lot in common, for as much as they are different in their charters and by laws, but the overall common goal is the same DRUM CORPS.

\------------- Is it though 30 units with 3000 people total, from 10 years about were it was 20 units with the same 3000 people....... I am not meaning to be mean here or be contrary..... but I think in order to make statements even like mine,,,,,, numbers are proof. Like I said I will call a mea culpa if someone can provide participation #'s. Same thing as you Jeff, you see on these threads about how many people are at events... I hate that....... Give me real gate #'s that show me show attendance is up or down..... So real numbers are the truth teller. That is what I will believe. Not that I don't trust you Jeff of course, but in order for ANY Of us to make statements, as I put IMHO in several places in my post.... that is all it is is opinion. Again, I will plead mea culpa with real #'s. Believe you me I come from DCI back in the day, I don't like or care for the tack they are on. I am also in the same vein NOT convinced that DCA is the answer to the evils of DCI or vise versa. I want the WHOLE activity of drum corps to remain for my kids. That is my goal. Whether it survives as DCA or DCI doesn't matter to me - I WANT it to survive and thrive in ALL ways possible.

-------------------- IMHO even though the poster made completely valid points....... I would challenge the contention that DCA is growing as opposed to the implication that DCI is contracting....... I would suggest they both are contracting both in participation, attendance at shows, etc..... DCA in no way has as many top class corps as it did 20 years ago -- they have more divisions, more niches, but that doesn't necessarily mean MORE people - it means more avenues for people to participate, or view and enjoy.... that is all. Just as DCI in no way has as many corps as it did 20 years ago. So unless someone can prove the implied and stated contention in that poster's message, I am more than skeptical. I whole heartedly support his contention that DCI is in the business of protecting its members and they say that and mean it. DCI does NOTHING to expand the activity at all or help make it more accessible to viewers or participants. DCA does, through the creation of these other niches, try to adapt to the changing need in the activity and that is always a good sign. But dancing (creating niches) among the fire when the flames of decreased participation, increased economic pressures on both participants and organizations, etc.... doesn't mean the dance put out the flames or even made them smolder. It only means you danced. I am not from Missouri - but show me where DCA can prove that it has more members, more corps, more dollars coming in than it did 20 years ago and then I will plead mea culpa. I doubt that is going to happen. SO with both DCA and DCI contracting - - what is inevitable - - either they both die ? Or one dies ? Or they morph to merge to each other and try and survive from there. Another possibility is that DCA struggles, stands alone and DCI and USSBA become one in the same. TO me if that scenario were to play out there is then no longer any question about what is drum corps and what is not. DCA would be then the only last vestige of drum corps - with DCI/USSBA being elitist glorified marching band. IMHO to save the activity - which lets be clear - is drum corps (not the org DCI or DCA or any other named group) - - a merger needs to be hashed out, examined and then if it is no good, tossed to the side and let the chips fall where they may. But to just slam the door and not even examine the possibility does a disservice to all those involved in the ACTIVITY of DRUM CORPS.

Oh I agree, but to just say oh Rochester does it best and lets not go any where else, isn't the right attitude either..... that was my point.... I have many beefs with having the DCA in Rochester and a few positives, but options should always be examined - and if something else doesn't make sense financially or otherwise, than so be it, it stays where it is. TO not look at all or to not have competing venue possibilities is not what DCA I think wants or we should want either as participants or otherwise.

No offense to anyone on the thread, but this is all just talk.... Unless there is someone actively seeking a bid packet and working with another community, it will be in the same place and the same time as always. I am all for a competition in this regard, it breeds the best offers, but it is a lot of work and it is a niche activity, and unless you get someone in some Chamber of Commerce somewhere that understands what it is and SEES the value of bringing those people and the dollars, Rochester is where it will stay. I wish some other area would compete for it. Change and refresh is always a good thing. We wouldn't want to stagnate now, would we ???

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AMEN

--------------- "shocking decline"............nope I would say keep watching the slide. The better adjective is "predictable" decline.

---------------- You could perhaps interpret what I wrote as griping and complaining, but actually I was just trying to state some information as I personally know it and let the other posters think about it..... I am a bit of a fatalist at this point and agree to a certain extent with another poster on here that said something like he is watching the slide..... So 99 percent of me believes we are headed to BOA/USSBA land within the next five years or less depending on economic conditions. However, not being a total fatalist there is 1 percent of me that holds out some hope that things can change.... IMHO there are other options - - 1. DCI needs to ACTIVELY support ALL types of corps activity -- from feeder corps, to mini corps, etc......... For those that have ever tried to get support information from them - - it is laughable.... You send an email and get a packet about total nonsense and the benefits of being in DCI. How many posters have we seen on here - - how do I start a corp? where can I get help with.....? What do I do when.....? How do I become a non profit .....? I guarantee you DCI DOES NOT have information or staff or documents that they share or are willing to share with anyone on any of these abc's of drum corps. DCI claims to support the activity by running what a show circuit ???? Big Deal - if they support the activity, they need to SUPPORT the activity with something other than running a show circuit and making the rules for competition...... Especially an activity that is dying before our eyes. 2.DCI needs to change the governing body - - for the poster who asked what is the governing body.... I would challenge you to email or call DCI and see how fast and IF you get an answer. The governing body just in the last span of time added "at-large" members - - people supposedly with no affiliation to a corp..... How do you get to be one of those ??? What is the process??? Again, I challenge any of you to be able to find out and then execute it. DCI has created a board that NO one outside of top 12 or an insider to one of those top 12 members can participate in. THIS needs and MUST change. The more people involved, the better the organization and the more options that open for DCI. DCI is busy protecting its closed inner circle because the breed is dying....... a knee jerk reaction to a losing situation. In fact, this will be part of the reason DCI dies. Fear of the unknown and the masses. 3. DCI rules for competition - - we can all rehash 100 things we hate about the current rules. Have you ever read them? Holy crap. Amazing. But what I feel and just my HO is that beyond DCP and the stuff posted there - - most people who are either staff, support admin or corps admin are people who have been in the activity for many years combined and they each have their beef with the rules too. So it isn't just us has been fans - - it is the people in the trenches. Unfortunately the WORLD CLASS board members DO not. If you have ever looked at a rule vote, there is very little disagreement when one comes in - - even on the matters like amplification. I would be curious to know if the board were expanded to included people out side that inner circle - how that would change. I think it would. The rules need to be simplified, changed and made PUBLIC each and every time one is agreed to or modified. 4. MONEY - - Do you know what the TOP 12 gets from DCI other than the awards at competition = = hold on, here it is : NOTHING. What should DCI be doing ??? IMHO they should be the activities biggest cheerleader, the biggest fundraiser, the biggest support network a corps could have. Every corps from world class on down - gets zippo. THey are on their own both financially and fiscally long term -- Do you know that the inspection process is basically a critique and they don't even offer help to fix things that are wrong with their books, with a corps financial activities or fundraising. So if you have issues getting from Open to world -- DCI will come in "judge" your group, tell you whats wrong and then leave you to figure out how to fix it. To me that is NOT a financial support organization..... THIS must change. DCI is a show circuit, that holds the rules cards. Nothing else. Now their inability to be what it should be for a niche activity is causing the slow slide to demise. So I don't just gripe and not have constructive things to add......but I have been there, done that and tried many ways to see what the benefits of DCI is and could be. I just don't see it. Although my 99% rules most of the time, my 1% does come out every now and again........... I HOPE that somewhere somehow things change. I love all drum corps, even though I disagree with what I see on the field now. I want my two kids to be in drum corps and learn the lessons that I did - those things haven't changed. I fear that when it is their time to be in it - - what we all know, will be gone.

Double Amen. I have at one point attempted involvement with DCI, tried to get basic information, and donated money. It must be clear to most of the posters here and other places that DCI has a governing board - the governing board is interested in financial survival as any organization is. To continue to be somewhat viable, they are changing the rules, the game - to extend the viability of the organization. What I have with DCI personally questioned - - is - - is all of this REALLY creating more participation, more attendance, more donations to the organization...... NO answers. All they sent was the usual press pablum supplied about the marching arts. What we have seen and we really don't need DCI to confirm is the following - shows that once were regulars on the schedule, now gone. Attendance at the shows dwindling each year. Cost of ticket prices rising, each year. # of corps struggling to make ends meet each year, increasing. Dues rising each year to where now to march in a world class costs more than several thousands of dollars. Corps coming and going inactive more frequent than not. So with all the change in the rules - - synths, mics, change in the # of the field, or anything else you can think - - the facts are the activity and its members are not making ends meet. So what is going to happen - - either they die or survive in some other form. I think the hopes of the organization (DCI) is that by the time that decision comes around, we will have all been so numbed by all the "band" changes that have been made, that we won't care at the point of ultimate decision to turn to a BOA or USSBA situation. I hate to portray such a cynical attitude, but I offer this - - if none of these changes has extended the viability of the organization (DCI) and I would argue all they have done is prolong a certain death to BOA or something like it................ Why aren't the forces, the governing body, the organization trying something else ? Unless you can with statistics, numbers, etc... prove to me that the changes have increased membership, increased the number of corps, provided and sustained financial viability for any of the world class..... Then I would suggest it is time to try something else. If there is no desire to try anything else from the governing body - - then I will get really cynical here and tell you that the hidden agenda is to go to World Class Marching Band. We are half way there now, they might as well finish the job. Let the chips fall where they may, let all of us back in the day people keep #####ing and moaning and move on already. I am tired of hearing about Hop and what he has done to destroy drum corps - - he is a one man show, he is not DCI. DCI has and should take responsibility for any and all issues and the STATE of drum corps today. The governing body that has ruled that world for the last 15-20 years may look back someday and wonder where it all went, but in the end, THEY were the ones that drove it to Indy, THEY were the ones that made it "band" like, and they were the ones we should be upset with. The kids are doing amazing things today - - I couldn't play and march like they do now - - THEY are participants in an activity, that has had the rules changed by people who supposedly know better. UNTIL you know better, you don't do better. DCI is NOT doing any better by these kids today. They perform magic, but magic without the ooing and the aaahing of the crowd, isn't much fun.

AMEN

Yeah, I know, but I am holding out that some of my other conditions don't come true....... It was a sad day nonetheless.

1. Electronics should be banned, all kinds from synths to mics to anything, if you can't play music without them in all dynamic ranges and blow our doors off - don't play 2. TOO MUCH PIT CRAP - - how many shows has anyone seen where 15 marimbas actually make a difference - - I can count one in the last 15 years. Take pit off the sidelines and get players between the end zones. 3. quarterfinals, semi finals, finals..... what happened to every corps shows up and gets on chance - - either you make it or you don't Top 12 perform at finals. The only reason this changed is so DCI could make more money from us 4. Judging - - can't even go there, but needless to say it is without boundaries the single greatest failure and change in drum corps history from scoring from bottom up to taking judges off the field, to anything else you can think of. 5. The day a soloist gets amplified or a woodwind hits the field - drum corps is over. 6. DCI will be dead in less than 10 years and it will be resurrected as USSBA or BOA, pick your poison. I stop attending or watching or subscribing to anything related to it. 7. DCI needs to support all levels of corps activity and open up to merging with DCA - - if they don't do either, both activities will die faster - plain and simple, the economics of running these multi million dollar organizations is getting MORE & MORE difficult, not easier. If you want drum corps (not marching band) - someone better change their attitude about all forms of drum corps fast and now. I mean they need to support everything, not just the World Class members or the Open Class members - - ever try and get information from DCI - - fat chance. Since the top 12 drive the rules at the moment, everyone sit back and get prepared to watch a continued painful progression to BOA and USSBA 8. Allentown is the last venue close to being drum corps - Indy for 10 years is stupid and inside and one step closer to BOA.

------------ Well biased or un, he does a great job with this. DOUBLE HYPE TO THE CARETAKER> DOUBLE HYPE TO LIZ FOR MAKING IT THIS PAST WEEKEND TOO>>>>> LOVE YOU both.