charlie1223

I believe SoundSport is the response that you are looking for. It's a part of DCI and it is an operation that provides minimal barriers to entry towards the production of brand new corps and/or ensembles. So, if you consider ALL of DCI's initiatives and not just their World Class Division it could be argued that they are.

Do organizations have multiple sets of keyboards? Well, some bands have instruments that they do not bring outside so they do not get ruined. They may have 3 marimbas but only bring 2 outside. And some drum corps have multiple marimba keys (2 sets of rosewood or 1 acoustalon and 1 rosewood) that they switch these out for rehearsal and performance for the same reasons. But you're right that a school may be happy to just have a 20 year old marimba for their kids to play on.... if that... I imagine that such schools if given the opportunity to buy more equipment are looking for the most durable and cheap instrument available.

I agree that the role of the pit has dramatically changed in drum corps. But I don't necessarily think that the pit shouldn't be heard during their non-featured moments. I think bring up a larger point about the brass line being "more important" than the pit, battery or guard. I think that's interesting that because how we structure corps with 72+ brass players, then it must statistically be that the majority of alumni are brass players... maybe the fans too? And how this plays into that thinking... Maybe, the brass line IS the most important element in a drum corps... But, I don't think that the growth of the pit hasn't taken away from that. Especially since I think great pit writing has the ability to show off the strengths and colors of the pit while also supporting the brass and battery, but not being shy about it, I want to hear them! Playing with instrumentation certainly would be innovative! Also... really risky. Are there really no rules that govern how small your brass line can be in DCI?

I appreciate your thoroughness, but having experience with using a wide variety of percussion instruments and marimbas I don't want you to completely rely on the description of acoustalon on the website to counter my argument. The acoustalon have a very resonant sound and can project more than rosewood however, no matter what the website says, they act and sound very different from rosewood keys. The fact that acoustalon is advertised for both indoor and outdoor means little to the discussion. It's not like a marimba with acoustalon doesn't work if its inside, so ofcourse... you can say it's for both indoor and outdoor DUH! But, if we're talking about getting the most preferred sound for a marimba in an indoor context, again this comes from having experience in percussion, you appreciate more the sound of rosewood bars. To address each of the descriptions you pulled. If a frame is designed for "outdoor" use then it is, by default, able to be used indoors so this is a default simulation. But in terms of frames its important that you notice that having a field frame is an option and that all marimbas do not automatically have a field frame therefore all marimbas are not automatically best suited for outdoor use. Being able to transport a marimba is a great feature for indoor ensemble and outdoor ensembles so this feature isn't necessarily specific to only outdoor ensembles. And lastly 4'' casters are really small and NOT great for outdoor mobility. Most drum corps have 8 - 10 inch tires on their frames. Check the out the Cavies here and their massive tires. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10MUmwfDeeM So through a different context with more information, it does back up what I'm saying.

There are absolutely differentiations in frames, keys, and mallets especially when you are considering indoor and outdoor ensembles. This cannot be ignored and for percussionists I assure you that these differences are obvious and tangible and I am not making this up. Now, the point that you are finding difficult to understand is understanding what is "good enough". If I said that you could use a M184 on the lowest register of a 5 octave rose wood concert marimba would you say that that is good enough? Maybe you don't understand what a M184 is but it is an extremely hard yarn mallet that is not designed to create the best quality of sound at the lowest end of the marimba. But does that stop you from having it be "good enough" for that register? If you are poor musician or are choosing to break some Low C's then yes. The point is that the versatility of a marimba (I can play it anywhere) doesn't mean that it is good enough for everywhere. If a corps plays with acoustalon outside it DOES NOT mean that is the best choice for an indoor classical percussion ensemble. If you're trying to save money it will make due but its really up to taste if you feel that its "Good enough". But I just don't want you to poo poo the choices that percussionist make to have their ensembles sound as best as they possibly can or confuse the fact that schools cannot afford the best instruments means as meaning that what they have is "good enough". Plus, I can tell you that a lot high school and especially college groups do not care what mallets or instruments that WGI or DCI groups use especially when they are deciding what to use for a classical percussion ensemble environment. If you are deciding what to use for an outdoor marching ensemble or an indoor percussion ensemble then the choices of DCI and WGI would be more pertinent.

To answer your question about pit sizes and the need for 4 vibes and 5 marimbas. Why would a choir arranger want any more than 1 soprano, 1 alto, 1 tenor, and 1 bass in their choir? Why in the drum corps do we have more than 1 instrument per part? Do you believe than amplified drum corps with 1 trumpet, 1 mello, 1 bari and 1 tuba would sound as rich as having 16 or more per part? (even though we could juice the amps of that 4 member hornline to be as loud as the full one) The richness of the sound is the reason but richness does NOT have to do volume. No matter how we amplify a 1 marimba and 1 vibe ensemble it won't sound as rich as amplified 4 vibe, 5 marimba ensemble. That's not saying that a 4 person drum corps or choir won't also sound rich and beautiful. But its not the richness that we can appreciate in large outdoor settings not matter how amplified. But you don't have to worry. I don't see drum corps reprising one of Musser's "Marimba Orchestras" any time soon.

If you take a look at many of instrument manufacturer websites you will see they have selections for outdoor and indoor ensemble types. In fact a retailer would want there to be a differentiation between outdoor and indoor ensembles as opposed to wanting to "streamline their indoor and outdoor equipment". That way, you would be compelled to buy more instead of substituting indoor equipment outdoors. for example, Yamaha actually created Acoustalon marimba bars specifically for outdoor projection and weather protection and they also create different keyboard frame designs to make outdoor equipment more easily handled and moved. On the implement side, its really ridiculous to think that any kind of streamline is going on when there are different categories for specifically outdoor and indoor ensembles and mallet usage. AND most obviously, there is no way indoor equipment could be used in an drumline so streamlining here is non-existent. So, I'm not commenting on the fact that you think there is a special interest in DCI (don't think there is) but I can tell you that the reason you stated "to streamline their product lines and save money if indoor and outdoor equipment is the same" is demonstrably false when you even take a moment to look at the wide array of differentiation between outdoor and indoor equipment that instrument manufacturers have.

That's... not how it works...

Every kid is different. You can't assume you know what its in the best interest of the kid without knowing the kid. And if you do know the kids, like you claim that you do, then you can mentor them just like that staff can mentor them. That's the best you can do. You also conveniently ignore that dozens of other factors that can go into a students decision to continue to attend camps and the staff members for inviting them to the next camp. Situations in real life, no matter how often you may say otherwise, are not always black and white. You keep spouting the same thing like a broken record. You tout harsh unwarranted criticism of corps staff for being horrible in nearly every aspect. From their decisions on how they audition members, accusing them of being narcissistic money hoarders that do not value the best interests of their students, to them even being immoral artists with depraved intentions. You aren't really engaging in a discussion on here, you are just on a pulpit.

We're not talking about definitions. We're talking about how people involved with drum corps define the activity for themselves. I would expect someone like yourself to know the subtle difference of the context. And the uninitiated person will come away with that idea if that is how it was described to them. There are other ways to describe it though, each leaving the uninitiated person with a different idea of drum corps.

It's interesting how you didn't seem as skeptical about the idea that DCI was in decline... No very consistent, Brasso. Or maybe you're only skeptical of information that doesn't reinforce your perspective? Now that's says something........ hmm......

In these thought experiments we start with an activity and we ask people what defines it for them. We are not asking what the definition of it is. And at the same time the way people define an activity can NOT be reversed engineered to imply something else. What defines this apple? It's delicious taste and red color. It does not then follow that all things that are delicious and have a red color (like strawberries) can be called apples. A implies B but B does not imply C just because C could also be derived from B.

Do you enjoy their 2012 production?

I think the comment you responded to is saying that things go both ways. Just because you win DCI doesn't mean that your show concept is innovative which is of-course reasonable when you consider the innovative merits of a show are not given out based on its placement but on the content of the show. I think at some point we need to acknowledge that the design trend BD started in 2008, which culminated in intensity in 2010, is now 6 - 4 years old... to put it in perspective the iphone 3g was just getting rolled out. At some point things that were innovative at one point cease to be innovative over time. And I would tend to agree that Blue Devils design, though extremely effective on the sheets, very intellectually motivated with the emphasis on multiple overlapping seemingly chaotic layers, is not as innovative as it once was even though its effectiveness in the competitive arena has not yet waned. Its just one of many possible innovative tangents that we can see from DCI. What's interesting is how many innovative tangents we have yet to see or even think of yet.

What experience did your students have?

I didn't arrive at the second corps until February. I did not have to pay the camp fees for those camps that I missed at the new corps. I did have to pay the full tuition for the summer, of course, but was offered an early-bird tuition rate even though I was accepted in the corps at a later date. Going through the audition experience with two corps cost about the same if I was with 1 corps the entire season. Going into the beginning of the season I was prepared and anticipating to pay for the entire corps experience (from audition to championships) and the fact that I did not make a corps, got cut late, and had to audition at another corps did not add to my cost of participating. I only paid for the camps and experiences that I was present for.

Your characterization of staff members is absolutely ridiculous. Have you actually gone to a camp recently and seen how the staff members act? Have you, I am curious, been in the room when a staff member gives their one on one with students? have you even given the audition yourself? Do you ACTUALLY think that stringing along kids JUST for their money is in the best interest of the staff members?! I mean, WOW. Let me explain something bluntly. Having kids that are not good enough to be in the corps at camps that extend past the audition camps is terrible. A staff member is trying to get his section stronger, learning music, working on bonding with the group and brainwashing kids into forking over their money and worrying about their egos is literally the last thing on that list. It's not even a blip on the radar. It's immaterial for these professionals. Do you want to know what's in the best interest in the STAFF? Getting the good kids to come in early, stay for the long hall, and snake out those that don't make the cut as quickly as possible. Belabored audition processes are trying for both staff and student. Remember their interests are the same. In the percussion section nothing is worse when you don't have enough equipment for all the people that are auditioning. Switching instruments around so everyone gets a chance, everyone being at drastically different levels of talent, is a VERY difficult teaching environment. The longer that that kind of environment persists the worse the experience is for the staff and for ALL the members. And somehow you think the corps staff are so egotistical as to bring upon themselves and their group this distress is a logical conclusion??? The real world goes beyond your wild depraved visions of staff members. Prolonged audition experiences are hardly a planned consequence and frankly they hardly happen often enough for them to be an issue. I explained the reasons why auditions are prolonged. Actual REASONS why they are prolonged but I guesss they are falling deaf ears? Is this an echo chamber? you wrote: The majority of staff at that time, not all but most, in any given corps actually consulted with those cut to encourage them to go audition for this corps or that corps because the staff was truly looking out for the best interest of the kid and not the self-interest of their own corps; and they respected the experience and education kids would receive in other corps as being just as valuable as their own corps. Stu, where do you get this stuff? Seriously. The world is truly a cruel and backwards place in your mind. How miserable you must feel! I just want you to know that modern staff members DO encourage kids to audition to march other corps. I was encouraged by the staff to march another corps. I was given a recommendation to march another by the staff. That staff respected the experience and education I would receive at the other corps. And there was not even an indication that I would be returning back to audition for the corps I was cut from! They did what they did because they respected my interest. My personal antidote at the very least proves that your archaic vision of corps staff is wrong. I don't know your experience... but wherever you've gotten this idea of staff egos trumping any rational thought is beyond me...

You would be surprised how many corps members do NOT have their poop in a group so to speak... It's just not a reality that all these highly talented musicians fully understand the breadth of the monetary and time commitment necessary. Guardling even mentioned people quiting during just a few days of Pre-Tour after all the time and money they put into the off season. I also know of many instances like this, especially during the audition camp season, and even some still in the middle of the summer! It's just a reality of the activity. Also, it is not always in terms of time needed to evaluate growth and change. Experience says that more talented people usually come out of the wood work after the first audition camp. The time it takes to evaluate new auditionees against "older" auditionees is the thing corps struggle with most. They do use videos as a valuable tool in saving, especially international students, the time and money before they come to a camp. However, things happen that can't always make this fool proof. And if attendence at camps is not consistent between auditonees that makes the call even harder. Returning Vets won't quit if the audition process was shortened, they would quit (and have for less) if the audition process did not allow a fully vetted process of who joins the ranks. Again, see the above reason as to why these processes are often lengthy. Also, as someone given a tier 2 rating... I had no problem using my resources to go audition for another corps. Many staff members are helpful and being one of the last members cut from a corps comes with some advantages... The staff member from the corps I was cut from actually made a personal recommendation to the caption head of another corps (what more could they reasonable do?) and my time and experience at the camps was taken into account during the audition process at this new corps. How evil... they clearly they didn't have my best interest at heart...

If you actually understood the tier you system you would understand how contradictory that bolded statement is. Telling a kid is in tier 3 does not also come with the distinction that he has chance of making the corps. A 3 literally means your cut but at the same time a corps does open its doors to those that want to come back and continue their learning experience if they choose too at the next camp. For a 3, what BETTER learning experience is there than to learn from the instructors of the corps that they hope to one day join? Its certainly not a waste of resources!! Plus a corps values how much a student changes and improves between camps... probably more than the actual talent they come with from the beginning in some cases... The best interest of the staff is the best interest of the students that march the corps. Those that march the corps expect to be surrounded by the BEST and most committed students and they expect that staff will do whatever it takes to create that kind of environment for them since are paying thousands of dollars to participate in their organization. It's truly surprising that you cannot see how tied the interests of the staff and students actually are. And I already explained to you the numerous reasons why corps do not fill all their corps positions or straight out cut people after the first camp. Those are legitimate reasons. I was one of those strung along kids believe it or not. If I told you my story you would not even believe the irony of my situation. Nevertheless, I have never regretted or resented the decision of the staff or the fact that I was cut from a corps in January. I had enough drive to then go and march another corps that year and there were plenty of opportunities for those that actually had the will to march another corps. As a side note, while these are young adults and "kids", they are auditioning and paying for the opportunity to be in a world class professional ensemble and the massive competition and standards means that it will take a lot of money and commitment in order to be in this kind of ensemble. It's not evil to provide a service and ask that you pay money for the service in the same way that its not evil that the marching members expect to be surrounded by the best. If we followed your system this would not be possible and that's the real disservice to the members.

Why do you describe this like the higher placing corps are evil? Care to explain the bias? there really isn't a better system to test a students ability to learn and their commitment to a corps. Do you know how many people would quit the corps if all spots in the corps were given out at the very first camp? You'd just be holding another audition anyway at the next camp mostly becuase these college and highscool kids don't REALLY understand the commitment they are getting into... and the time and money necessary to actually be in the BEST marching ensembles in the world. More talented kids come out of the wood work as the camps progress ALL the time and in my experience only a handful of the people that actually go to the first audition camp actually end up making the corps for a number of reasons like having conflicts and commitments at the first audition camp. The difference between colleges and drum corps is the college doesn't care as much if you reject their acceptance (unless you are truly exceptional) because you are one of thousands. Not the case with a drum corps where that position is not only a larger drop in the bucket but also harder to find. While is is arguably unfair to spend time and money to keep getting called back till January and eventually cut, there are a number of factors that prevent staff from solidifying their ranks until this time. Not the least of which is that drum corps is a small fish in a big sea of competition and opportunities for young people.

This is what it sounds like you are saying. They wanted to make changes to drum corps (through rule changes) but they didn't want it to be different from other drum corps. That's an oxymoronic statement. They made changes with new rules because they wanted it to be different why else make the changes and create DCI???Are you trying to prove that changing the rules of drum corps doesn't change drum corps into a different kind of drum corps? It's still corps it's just a different kind. We don't have to have different names to make the distinction between corps from the 1800's and the 1970's both are drum corps but they were very different in composition and purpose. Each instance is a different kind of drum corps.

If you agree that the corps wanted to make changes then you agree that they wanted to create a different kind of drum corps. I'm not being crypt here or try to trap you in a logical conundrum. It's just straight, they wanted to make changes because they wanted to create a different kind of drum corps for themselves and the fans. One implies the other. How can you say they wanted to make changes but didn't want to be a different kind of drum corps? Change literally implies different.

That's the piece I'm most excited for!

Maybe its just the fit in the picture but it seems a little too baggy around the upper torso. But if the front of the uniform is supposed to drape down the front like that and be somewhat like an open flap I'm not sure it conveys a strong body posture or sharpness. It definitely looks better on the snare drummer. The shako is a bit... pope-y... but the plume is cool!