Vdad76

Mine are (with a high amount of guess work and pulling it out of you know where, because anything could happen in the cleaning process!) and these are alphabetical within each grouping 1-4 Bluecoats, Blue Devils, Crown, Vanguard. 5-6 Cadets, Cavies 7-9 Blue Knights, Boston, Phantom Regiment 10-12 Blue Stars, Crossmen, Scouts 13-16 Academy, Colts, Mandarins, Troopers

Do you like saying that after everyone but who?

I think they can, putting myself on the line and saying they will is another matter. I also think their demise is greatly exaggerated, but I do think they need to right the ship and get back to being the Cadets.

I did not say that's the way they would finish, I did say, at the moment this is what it looks like after talking with them and my own observation and thoughts. I also said, the medalists would probably come from the top 4, which includes the Vanguard.

You're right, my brain had a momentary lapse.

I think it's probably fitting together this way (after talking with my judge friends who have either judged at least one set, talked with other judges or seen video on U tube, along with my own seeing the end of camp things on Flo, the movie theater production opening show in Indy, U tube videos) at the moment. 1. Bluecoats 2. Blue Devils 3. Crown 4. Vanguard 5. Cavies 6. Cadets 7. Phantom Regiment 8. Boston 9. Blue Knights 10. Crossmen 11. Blue Stars 12. Madison 13. Mandarins 14. Troopers 15. Colts 16. Academy 17. Spirit 18. Pacific Crest I do think there are a lot of possibilities that could happen, but based on what I see and think is - the top 4 will pretty much provide us with the medalists, that it will be close all year just as last year. Crown and Coats have surprised everyone with their percussion this year, BD and Cadets seem to have real quality in their guards. Cadets or Cavies could surprise everyone and move into the Bronze medals , but they have a lot of corps to climb over to get there and with the other corps usual second half pushes in recent years, it doesn't seem likely. Boston, Phantom or Blue Knights could push into the number 6 slot, but I think it's highly unlikely as you look at the top 6 at this time and everyone on the list has won at least one championship. In fact out of the top 12 right now, only BK, BAC, Blue Stars and Crossmen haven't won the championship yet and I don't think this is their year yet. In fact out of that 4, only the Blue Stars have finished in the top 3 and I was in HS when that happened, so it's been a long time, decades since that happened.

Medalists - going to come from Bluecoats, Blue Devils, Crown or Vanguard. Bluecoats have the upper hand out of the gate, especially GE and if their guard and percussion keep up their end, it might be two in a row. BD has the horn line to win it all, but the percussion is not at its normal level and I don't think they have the GE to match Coats. Crowns percussion might actually keep them in the top three and their Brass is superb, but again do they have the GE to beat Bluecoats? Santa Clara might just have it all, but can it get clean enough and boost its GE enough to take it all? Darkhorses - Cadets, Cavies. These two might stage the all time battle of all battles to get into the medalist places. Cavies are working hard to get back to their swagger when the were perennials in the top 3 and Cadets either shook up their staff or had staff who said that's enough and went to other places (dependent on who you believe), to have fresh blood and a renewed vision to get back to being a medalist - both corps are former throne sitters and want back badly. One or both could get back in as we might see the most hotly contested and closest scoring ever in the top 6. Wanting to break into the top 6 - Blue Knights, Boston Crusaders, Phantom Regiment, Blue Stars. Phantom is the only former King in this group, at least in the DCI Championship years. Blue Knights have worked hard and have put shows out there, that have been out there. It's a corps that everyone likes but no one seems to take really seriously. They remind me of the Glassmen, who took off on a run of 4th-6th places in the 90s. Boston has been around and has hit the number 6 spot, but has mostly dabbled in the 9-12 area in the past few years. They seem to have a new drive (and corresponding $$ and new staff) to push them there. We'll see if and who might there or whether they spend time in the 7-9 pergatory again. 11-14 - Scouts, Crossmen, The Academy, Troopers, Mandarins, Blue Devils B, Colts. It will be the annual battle to see who stays on the DCI board and gets to perform on the prime time night or who watches from the sidelines, saying "we'll get back in next year.

Here we go - 1. Bluecoats - ride the high and being in the forefront of mixing recorded/miced/live music. Visual gets better and gap widens over everyone else as they show DCI what being on the edge means. 2. SCV - after the powerful shows in the past 3 years they break through on the sheets, winning percussion and color guard and second in visual and GE and in a surprise move they go into the "bottle dance" in warm up, the crowd blows the roof off the dome, never sits down for the entire show as the adjudicators can't hear themselves speak. 3. Cavies - the swagger is back along with a show that fits them perfectly. 4. Blue Devils - the greatest organization in DCI puts on a great show, just lacking a slight amount in their usual strong categories. 5. Carolina Crown - in the closest top 6 ever in DCI, a wonderful show is rewarded, but just not enough to over take the top 4. 6. Blue Stars - climbing back into the top 6, the long journey of one of the most historic Corps in DCI, continues. 7. Cadets - Hopkins goes crazy, ripping score sheets up and flipping off the judges at retreat. Swears to go on the road in a new stage show with Cirque du Soliel. 8. Phantom Regiment - with the audience begging for a great show and the "Phantom Sound", the group can't quite rise to the occasion and plays an ok show, getting an ok response and ok scores. 9. Boston - all the money for new staff, etc, starts to pay off and things start to look like there actually is a long term plan in play here. The crowd buzzes with excitement for another Eastern Corps to rise from the ashes. 10. Madison - starting to look and sound like the Madison of old, crowd members weep as Madison grabs the number 10 spot. 11. Blue Knights - in yet another confusing and convoluted show, the Knights waste a year with a talented group of youngsters as the crowd and judges are left scratching their heads and saying "WTH" to each other as BK goes by in retreat. 12. Troopers - climbing back in the top 12 with the highest 12th place score ever, the Troopers stake their claim to being back by pulling out "Battle Hymn" with the star burst drill at the end of the show. Older folks scream and cry, remembering better times and "that's what DCI is, right there!", while youngsters are blown away by the symmetrical drill, claiming the Casper, Wyoming corps is breaking new ground in drill writing and it's the future of visuals! 13. Academy/Crossmen - a tie for 13th in Semi-finals, missing only by .005 of making it into finals. Both Corps swear they will double down on the paths they are on and swear to their fans to be back in the top 12 next year, while a Blue Devils B, creeps closer to making it in to Finals!

Dark Horses down and up - Crown/BD - one will fall to 4/5 slot SCV/Cavies - one heads into top 3 Blue Knights/Cadets - one falls down to 9/10 Blue Stars/Phantom/Boston - one heads up to 5/6 Academy/Crossmen - one or both falls out of top 12 Madison/Troopers - both are back in top 12

But the problem, from what I gather - and I've been streaming for two years now with DCI live, is that it's been pretty incompetent on the Flo side of things and a lot of the incompetence has been in mic placement, understanding what visuals need to be shown, what channels need to be turned up so that what is happening in the brass isn't buried by front ensemble. That sounds like it's not just streaming. It also sounds like DCI places it's interns and lowest on the totem pole employees as the people who run things for DCI live, if that's the case or if they are going to leave it in flos hands, then I'm really disappointed in DCI, because that just pushes fans away, it certainly does not attract them. I certainly thought we'd grow on this end of things and want it to be of the highest quality, not push it off to the flunkies.

Looks like you are right. They have every major show and Championships listed, so I'd say let's hope it's good! My biggest question is to anyone - why doesn't DCI pony up and do this themselves. With the amount of people in the business, it would not be hard to take the bull by the horns and do this with the people who know how to produce the shows. Hire a Tom Blair type of person, salary him or her, buy the equipment and go after people who could do it. They could keep it in house and make money on it. I'm sure someone out here understands what the cost analysis would be for DCI to make money on it - and they would have all the complete rights to the broadcast. They could eventually roll it out and pick up BOA and WGI, keeping people employed all year as a performing arts company specializing in live performances. Just seems like the smarter thing to do than to guess which company might get it right and wade through the learning curves every couple of years with nobody really getting it before switching to a another company and starting over again.

Thank you!

Thanks very much!

This may sound pretty ignorant at this point, but, I can't seem to find the music list for Crossmen, Blue Stars or Cavies anywhere - help?

No way it is underrated. It is spoken of in reverent, hushed tones all over DCI, especially by those who got to see them in prelims - like me. I know they had gotten beat by BD just a couple of weeks before Championships, but that Horn Line was so clean, especially in prelims. I think they could have won it all because they were really in sync, but we'll never know!

My point would be that maybe George Oliviero should be listened to. He is one of the best and great minds in the judging community and should not be discounted in any way, shape or form. I've known the man for a long time, had many conversations with him about DCI, WGI, music, the Arts, etc., he has experience that 90% of the current judging community doesn't have. I do not think, however, that he holds such a sway over anyone who adjudicates to just follow him over the cliff. Most people who judge have their own opinions and it does bias them somewhat, but the training that you receive as an adjudicator is to take those personal things and use them only as a part of the tools you come into any show. Corps are where they are in scoring, because of the points gained through working towards perfection in whatever caption you adjudicate, including General Effect. Yes, it is more subjective, but you don't seen an incredibly sloppy group outdueling one whose show is clean. It has to entertain and part of that entertainment is a well thought out musically exciting show that is equally balanced by the visuals put forth. Both of those things must be clean for the scores to reach the higher end boxes - if you can't tell what is going on musically or decipher the visual that is interpreting the music, then you are not having much of an effect on anyone!

I would agree for the most part, but truthfully, loving both of these groups, Stars leap off the edge to things not seen, tried or interpreted the way a Star did, was truly incredible. I have looked at these two shows back to back, with several groups in between, both ways (Cadets first, Star last/Star first, Cadets last) and come up with the same answers. I have adjudicated both shows with the DCI forms used at that time in GE and Music. I come up with the same result. Even though Cadets have an incredible show, but Stars' show was truly ground breaking with horn line body movement, incredible tempos, member stamina, guard movement with equipment, let alone the equipment used for the stark or use of little or no color on the equipment. It was movement with a point of going toward something or building to a point, rather than movement for the sake of movement, musical interpretation of that music being done by the people on the field. It was done through the use of everything possible inclusive of things that showed a very convincing level of little or no - color, equipment such as a pole, rather than a pole with a flag. It was done with body movement while playing (something other than the movement of marching. Music was at times minimalist and the choreography, drill movement, playing (dynamics, or placement of sound)lent itself to that, something that some corps are still struggling with. I contend that, this show could still compete today and I think with the talent, practice and dedication of staffs and the corps members themselves, could contend for a title!

Ok, here we go - Star of Indiana's 1993 show was an incredible show that should be recognized as so far forward in design, music, movement, use of guard, writing in all catagories - and was performed so well, that it not only should have Finals, but could be competitive today and, I think, even win the title 24 years later!

Still like Star of Indiana in 93 as the best conceived, performed, designed, written. That would be a winning today. So far ahead of its time, it was incredible. I thought they got screwed that night, and ultimately DCI lost out on some great future shows. The activity wasn't ready to move that far forward that quickly. I think BDs show of 2014 was incredible and one of the finest, but, just my opinion, Stars' show that year was just light years ahead.

I actually was there and even though that was and is in my top 5, for what I heard in Arrowhead - known to be the loudest outdoor stadium in the US, from the last 90 seconds of Malagueña to the cutoff was absolutely the loudest ever for my ears. Might have been because of where I was - bottom of the first hanging section on the 45. With the crowd going crazy, begging for more sound, the screamer section kicked and the rest of the corps responded with the patented Madison stance, there was no way you could hear yourself. I was on the lower deck on the 30 for Phantom in Bloomington, so I was probably a little skewed in what I could hear, but I could still hear. The announcement of the second place corps was not as big either, again to where I was, but you are correct in the emotion that very similarly displayed. I was a lot younger in Ithaca, NY when the Muchachos took over the stands and the field in the 74 finals, and being only 16, it was a much impressive setting to me despite being on the left side 25. When the bugle called announced them and the audience started revving up with Ole cheers and the stands erupting into, east, east, east, it was a mad house and I got caught up in it. It's still the single most crazy audience I have been. You almost couldn't hear because everyone was cheering everything. I went on a tour the next year to Europe with the US Collegiate Wind Band, which was based at Purdue University and got to know one of the guys in the snare line and he said most of them couldn't remember much from the show. He said it went by quickly, but was like being in a slow motion dream, he said they felt like they were looking at themselves as they played and marched. It's still the biggest placement jump (from prelims to finals) ever in DCI history. I was already hooked on Drum Corps, but got the fever with that year!

To me, it's more of nobody understands what goes into a GE score and judges (and DCI, I think) believe it's a catch all for everything they can't define well.

I wish I could have been there for that!

My first time was at Whitewater in 73. 74 was an incredible year. The excitement was something that pulsed through the stadium and when the trumpeter sounded the call for the Muchachos, the whole place went crazy and from there on in, it was flat out crazy. The only time I've felt that again - at a Drum Corps show was Madison's performances in Kansas City (when they started Malagueña and when they did the move into the dense triangle for the end push, you could not hear yourself - the crowd seemed to literally pull the sound out of them) and when they announced Santa Clara in second place I've never seen or heard a reaction like that (very close was the WGI Finals in 83 when the Cavies won finals by the slimmest of margins with as close to a perfect show as I've ever witnessed with their James Bond show). Strangers were hugging in the stands, high giving, screaming, it was a pleasure to see and hear!

If I had to do just one - 1988 Scouts Brasso, I couldn't stop, I had to keep going! Probably too many shows so my brain is solidified in the area that remembers shows, so........... 1973 Troopers 1974 Muchachos 1975 27th Lancers, Muchachos, Scouts 1976 Blue Devils 1977 Phantom Regiment 1978 Crossmen, Bridgemen, North Star, Kilties 1979 Phantom Regiment, Bridgemen, Guardsmen 1980 Spirit of Atlanta, Crossmen, Cavies 1981 Bridgemen, Scouts, 27th Lancers, Blue Devils 1982 Freelancers, Cadets, Scouts, Blue Devils 1983 Cadets 1984 Cadets 1988 Scouts, Velvet Knights, Santa Clara Vanguard, Phantom Regiment, Suncoast Sound 1989 Santa Clara Vanguard, Phantom Regiment 1992 Cavies, Cadets, Crossmen, Blue Devils, Velvet Knights 1995 Scouts 2001 Cavies 2011 Cadets, Blue Devils 2013 Carolina Crown, Cadets 2015 Blue Devils, Bluecoats, Carolina Crown 2016 Bluecoats, Carolina Crown, Santa Clara Vanguard, Cavies

Probably Santa Clara and Velvet Knights pointed us in the direction of props more than anyone else.