crest99

This debate has grown ever more banal since it first began back around 2001. The only redeeming quality of this thread is that the tide of DCP opinion appears to have turned against those who harbor irrational, self-serving, and generally ill-informed prejudices against a number of very decent drum corps and excellent nonprofit educational organizations. What has always surprised me about this debate - and in particular the positions taken by naysayers of the Jersey Surf, Academy, and Pacific Crest - is how people forget that the full-time summer touring model is really a fairly recent innovation in the history of the activity. The model adopted by these groups is not terribly dissimilar from that utilized by many corps well into the 1980s. To put this another way, the agitators on this thread appear to have adopted a parochial (that means narrow-minded, for the poster who confused serf and surf) and ahistorical vision of what drum corps is or ought to be. On that note, best of luck to Jersey Surf as they finish out their summer. I'm sure their members have been working very hard and are excited to take their show on the road again. Chris Pacific Crest, 1999-2003

The Cascades' smaller hornline is less striking than their guard. I count only 12 on the field from the twitter pics.

My guess is not that close, even though I'd like to see a great contest between both corps as much as anyone. That said, going by recent recaps alone it seems possible that PC could take a caption or two (eg percussion) from Madison.

That sunburst tag was pretty hot. I am a fan.

I'm guessing they are happy going on after the competition rather than before, whether they know the score or not. '03 was a nail-biter, having to hang out under the stands and hear mandarins and capital regiment play through their shows.

Well, I'm hoping you and I will have some other things to smile about before too long.... Chris 99-03

Perhaps a down payment on great things to come. And anyway I doubt any person in that organization cares about that score right at this moment.

I think part of the reason that DII/III championships often runs at smaller facilities is that DCI wanted the kids to perform their final shows in a relatively full venue rather than in a great big stadium with only one or two sections filled. A few thousand people can fill a first-class high school or junior college stadium and create a really exciting atmosphere, but that kind of crowd just can't do much in a huge bowl like Pasadena. But I also have been disappointed by the decline of DII/III, and I do feel that DCI could have - and can - do more for this segment of the activity. DCI's marketing strategies over the past few years have sometimes exhibited a myopic focus on the top handful of corps. We have to keep in mind that this approach is not without virtue - the activity has come a long way since the mid-1990s, when DCI was in utter financial disarray. In terms of the bottom line, DCI absolutely must rely on groups like the Blue Devils, Cavaliers, Cadets, and Regiment to put people in seats. Nonprofit does not mean that it's ok to go broke. At the same time, I think that DCI is neglecting its educational mission (the reason it is a nonprofit in the first place) by placing too much focus on the top units. In terms of recruiting, this strategy essentially targets affluent young people who generally already have access to either high-quality music programs or private tutors - or both. By contrast, the kids in DII/III are often the ones who need music education the most. They are generally younger. They probably haven't had access to top-notch music education programs in their schools, if they have one at all. In a few cases, these corps serve less affluent communities that used to be the home to so many corps. More to the point, this is the type of constituency that DII/III can and should serve in a big way, and one to which DCI ought to devote more of its resources. Chris

2003 PC. Pulled into our housing site in Orlando at the crack of dawn. We immediately notice that the grass on our field is about 11 inches high. The school folks inform us that the grass had in fact been mowed just a few days ago, and will not be mowed again until the end of the week. Tropical climate apparently induces incredibly rapid plant growth. The rest of the corps stumbles into the gym and hits the floor sleeping. The other drum major and I, however, proceed to mow the entire football field with a single push-mower the janitor had stashed in a closet. It is about 7-8 in the morning east coast time, but we are still 3 hours back on California time. It is already about 90 degrees and 100 percent humidity. There are alligators about 100 yards away. We are literally covered in blades of Florida's super grass. I think we may have actually had some help lining the field. Later that day the visual caption head tried to make us line a second guard field on an algae-covered piece of mud that seems to have been intended as the school's baseball field in better days, but I think it turned out to be too small for our purposes (I am almost positive he was undeterred by the algae and the mud). Chris

Didn't SCV pretty much close the book on this chart in '99?

I don't really have much against narration in general, but I don't feel like I've gained any new knowledge - either about the Cadets' show or the world in general - from their exposition on the benefits of pluralism and community.

I will say that academy was one of the few shows in the first block that held my attention. I did think Colts should have come out on top of the match-up this afternoon, but the scores (and the fact that we have a little bit of season left) suggest that this might not be the final word. In particular, the recaps seem to show that Academy is already marching the heck out of a show with relatively minimal visual effect. Then again they are generating lots of musical impact with a par musical peformance. Finally, I'm guessing that Academy's icky brass performance (which faintly glimmers of Boston circa early 2000's) will settle in for the night show.

The show is exciting, but that hornline is a little on the squirrely side today.

Absolutely. They definitely have some talent and it's a much stronger product than the last time I saw them live in '02.

A straight up drum solo.... Cool. Hornline is a little listless, wish they had more dynamic contrast.

Where are you located to be 4 hours ahead of central time? Bermuda? Iceland?

Cool thanks so much. Odd that they just don't tell you this when you place an order.

Dumb question: I just bought the webcast. I am logged in at the manage my account screen on dci.org. How do I get to the actual webcast?

This debate has happened every year for the past five years. Frankly I think the level of discourse has declined over that period of time. If DCI is sanctioning this particular show order, then I'm guessing the member corps (otherwise known as DCI) approved it. I'm also guessing that the folks at Spirit and elsewhere knew at the time this decision was made that the three corps in question might present a competitive challenge. Bravo to them for letting it be decided on the field. I don't think recaps should include an additional subcaption for bus miles logged, and I don't think that's how the kids in Spirit et al want to win.

I think they'll probably slip in the standings a bit, but this will likely have more to do with the DCI show set-up than the corps itself. In the past, earlier performance times have almost never boded well for Pacific Crest, whose tour schedule during recent years at least approximates that of Academy this season. Ditto on long intervals between shows. The only time this worked out well for PC was when we were first up in '03 at quarters, when the colorguard judge gave us a huge number and let us slip by CR and Mandarins. This isn't a revelation to anyone who reads these forums or even checks scores. It's apparently hard for judges to remember just how good the first corps was four or five corps into a show, and it's hard for them to have a ballpark number in mind for a corps that hasn't competed in awhile. I actually have a little sympathy for them here (though not too much). Remember, too, even corps that have competed with each other on the West Coast for a long spell before heading east have generally suffered when they meet their peers for the first time (I'll leave open whether this is inflation by the left coast or deflation on the right). Additionally, once you do poorly in one show late in the season (esp. a regional), it may be harder to convince a panel that this was a bad number. This doesn't mean that Academy will get hosed, but I think they will probably fail to get the nod when a judge is parsing out tenths of points in his/her caption with corps performing an hour later. As far as the corps itself, I think the problems groups like PC and Academy confront when they are at home have more to do with individual errors than design issues and rewrites. I think members of these corps have to actively "remember" performance assignments (step-offs, horn pops, releases) that become automatic for members on full tour, and this does become an issue on show days. Chris

I wonder what the people in these neighborhoods thought of you... A fleet of large vehicles pulling up and making a heckuva lot of noise in the middle of the night, a gaggle of teenagers wandering around in search of a 7-11 at the witching hour...that would be enough to bring me out onto the porch and give you a dirty look. And then rehearsal on top of that. As some of the other posters have suggested, the labels applied here are comical. Walnut, for example, is one of the wealthiest areas in Southern California. And I doubt the SoCal corps would put up their guests in anything approaching an unsafe school. I've been to the Citrus Bowl in Orlando, and these places are not even in the same universe as that neighborhood, which could indeed use some TLC. My educated guess is that many/most corps members are white and come from affluent neighborhoods, usually in the suburbs. It's understandable that they might be a little unsettled by staying in an urban working-class neighborhood with lots of non-white folks. But just because it's not a perfectly manicured subdivision doesn't make it a bad spot or the people rough. Chris

I'm not sure whether we should assume that a perceived decline in people throwing babies suggests that people are not gaining fulfillment from drum corps shows to the degree that they allegedly used to. I also think that manipulating the rulebook to make corps look more like a certain model -- whether that be frolicking with white rabbits or playing what corps played in the 1970s or what HBCU's play now -- in order to appeal to a wider audience is folly. DCI is ostensibly an educational activity for youth, and competitive structures ought to be based primarily on the needs of the performers. This is not to say that commercial considerations are not crucial to the activity's perpetuation and growth, but these imperatives are subordinate to educational objectives, not the other way around. How to balance the two? Well, I know I don't really go to drum corps shows for cultural enrichment. In other words, I don't care about bunnies or Malaguena -- I have both on my ipod as performed by much better groups. Drum corps performers are excellent, but they are also amateurs. The satisfaction I gain from seeing them perform is derived from witnessing the fruition of their hard work translated into excellence onto the field, not the product itself. I suspect that this is not so far off the vicarious dimension familiar to folks even older than me (even if they don't always realize it), nor do I think it's very far from why high school kids like drum corps. My guess is that they get a thrill from seeing kids their age do things they couldn't previously imagine. If they want to listen to rock/pop/whatever, they'll go somewhere else (I think Mr. Hopkins is very wrong on this count). I think DCI's best bet is to focus on the young people themselves, not to turn the competitive product itself into a more marketable commodity. This is not to advocate for a totally permissive rule structure, btw. I've opposed most recent rule changes based on their commercial impact, for reasons suggested above. Chris

I asked for such an explanation, and my post was almost entirely in the interrogative form. A justification that is intelligible only to the initiated strikes me as rather weak. Chris

I find the tradition argument unsettling. Is this to say that co-ed corps lack some essential quality that the Cavaliers and the Scouts manage to uphold by maintaining their membership requirements? Is this to say that corps who have given up various membership restrictions over the years are worse for the wear? No one has been willing to come out and pinpoint what exactly these corps gain through fraternity besides fraternity, and no one has explained to me how exactly that is different from the bond I shared with members of my co-ed corps. Would any of you honestly have the arrogance to walk up to a female member of the Boston Crusaders' hornline, or a male member of the Phantom Regiment color guard, and tell them that their presence detracts from the corps? Would any of you who have supported these two corps be willing to go back to your posts, replace all mentions of women with "blacks," "jews," or any other ethnic minority, and repost? Does the parallel between the two not disturb you? The question of equal opportunity is also more than a little upsetting. Separate is inherently unequal. Or at least that's what the Court said in their unanimous decision in Brown. Does anyone want to argue against Brown v. Board of Education? What was that about again? Educating the nation's young people? I am sensitive to the legal distinctions between public institutions, employment, and private organizations, but nonetheless, I happen to think that we would be better off applying that principle as broadly as possible. I also suspect that many of you might be hesitant to walk in a woman's shoes in this situation. Lay aside red herrings about feminism and liberalism and all that. Let's say that you are a woman and you want to perform with either the Scouts or Cavaliers purely on the basis of performance excellence or some other organizational virtue, and not to unseat any type of hierarchy simply for the sake of it. Let's say that even among 700 auditionees, you are the 7th best trumpet player (I believe the Cavies audition mainly, if not entirely, on music), and you get along great with the boys and the staff all weekend. And then your caption head tells you that while you've met all the requirements, they can't let you in because you are a woman. How would that make you feel? Would that not upset you at some deeper level? Is that something you would wish on someone else? If you were a caption head, is that something you would be willing to tell a woman? Can you imagine many other situations in which you could imagine yourself saying that to a woman? Chris

The "Quick Facts" sheet for Pacific Crest's 2007 season suggests a more extensive touring schedule. Although it looks more like the two-tour model of yesteryear than the current fashion, this is certainly a departure for them. It's also somewhat ironic given that the summer ends in California this season, but I digress. The doc: http://www.pacific-crest.org/downloads/07PCQuickFacts.pdf Chris