Theory of Respectfully Disagreeing

[JimF-LowBari]

Oh yeah, I tried to start this out as a corps based discussion because I had my access to the OT/Bored Forums removed. Makes it a lot easier to see the corps stuff when you go to "active topics".

But I'll take a chance and respond to mfrontz......

Think some of the spin and spite we see from the "talking heads" is also a ploy to sell their books. Thinking Al Frankin and (mainly) Ann Coulter on that one.

And unfortunately lot of people learn by what they see on TV.

And that includes people who follow corps (OK, I'm back to a corps discussion )

[wishbonecav]

Too funny.

The DCA Rochester review is the most read thread on the all-age board....as I hoped it would be. Were some of my comments, how shall I say it, "direct?" You bet! But it was all critical analysis based on impression (as a paying customer) and opinion (um....it was a REVIEW!).

You should see the replies I got (not only the live ones...the PM's!). I was made aware of several personal character flaws, called names, mocked directly, given a threat of physical harm and (my favorite) an invitation to perform an impossible physical act.

Shouting "YOU ARE WRONG!" and "YOU ARE A JERK!" at someone is not a discussion. Offering a substantive and logical opinion that might offer new insight might be a good place to start!!

Ya gotta luv it! :P

[dccorpsfan]

Too funny.

The DCA Rochester review is the most read thread on the all-age board....as I hoped it would be. Were some of my comments, how shall I say it, "direct?" You bet! But it was all critical analysis based on impression (as a paying customer) and opinion (um....it was a REVIEW!).

You should see the replies I got (not only the live ones...the PM's!). I was made aware of several personal character flaws, called names, mocked directly, given a threat of physical harm and (my favorite) an invitation to perform an impossible physical act.

Shouting "YOU ARE WRONG!" and "YOU ARE A JERK!" at someone is not a discussion. Offering a substantive and logical opinion that might offer new insight might be a good place to start!!

Ya gotta luv it! :P

Manners? We don't need no stinkin' manners!

[wishbonecav]

This is a broader problem in society.

I have heard it stated that it is because people have lost trust in the idea that truth can be arrived at by a shared appeal to reason. Debate on the basis of reason used to be the way that politics, religion, etc. were discussed.

With the loss of trust in reason has come appeals to emotion and the manipulation of words to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion which is actually arrived at by non-rational means. This is often a disguised power-grab for whatever version of justice you happen to agree with.

Notice that the word "rhetoric" is now a perjorative. It's no longer something that can employed to appeal to or reveal the truth, it's a manipulation of your thoughts for some end, usually power. Rhetoric is also exclusively what the other side engages in, or "spin," while your side is always speaking what really is happening.

:)

I am making part of your post into a refrigerator magnet (for my own personal use!)

[bigCPApi]

Someone hit on this point (or a very close approximation of it) in another thread, talking about the "sense of entitlement" that's crept its way into the world.

Is there maybe some correlation between how much you've participated in the activity and how much (or how little) sense of entitlement you have? Since we're on the subject of appealing to reason.... (my favorite way of phrasing a question in 3...) Discuss.

[Tom Brace]

This is a broader problem in society.

I have heard it stated that it is because people have lost trust in the idea that truth can be arrived at by a shared appeal to reason. Debate on the basis of reason used to be the way that politics, religion, etc. were discussed.

With the loss of trust in reason has come appeals to emotion and the manipulation of words to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion which is actually arrived at by non-rational means. This is often a disguised power-grab for whatever version of justice you happen to agree with.

Notice that the word "rhetoric" is now a perjorative. It's no longer something that can employed to appeal to or reveal the truth, it's a manipulation of your thoughts for some end, usually power. Rhetoric is also exclusively what the other side engages in, or "spin," while your side is always speaking what really is happening.

:)

Chris...you are so on target. Our society has dismissed rhetoric because its hard and requires work. The lazy way out is to have representatives of two opposing viewpoints shout at each other. Like this:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Harry Queen Show. Tonight we have representatives from the World is Flat Society and a distinguished professor of Geology from Harvard University, Dr. Timothy Roundorb.

<Harry>: Mr. Roundorb, you propose in your recent paper a theory that the world is indeed round. How did you come to this conclusion.

<Rep. from World is Flat interrupts> Just a minute Harry...our reseach from an extensive study by going out and watching sunsets in Kansas conclusively proves the world is flat. I mean, Dr. Roundorb, have you even been to Kansas?

<Dr. Roundorb> Well, no, but clearly anyone can look at the scientific evide....

<Rep. from World is Flat interrupting again> See, there you go...YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO KANSAS SO HOW DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE WORLD ISN'T FLAT? Sure, you've got some "scientific" research, WELL OUR RESEARCH SHOWS CONCLUSIVELY THAT THE WORLD IS FLAT AS A PANCAKE. Just go to Kansas and see for yourself!

<Dr. Roundorb> OK, but as I was saying...when seen from space, here's photos from the International Space Station that clearly shows the...

<Rep. from World is Flat again interrupting> WERE YOU EVER IN SPACE? HOW DO WE EVEN KNOW SPACE EXISTS? HAVE YOU BEEN TO THIS "SPACE STATION" AS YOU CALL IT?

<Dr. Roundorb> Well, no...but these pictures...

<Rep. from World is Flat again interrupting> AH HAH! PHOTOGRAPHS CAN BE DOCTORED, DOCTOR CAN'T THEY? I'VE HEARD OF PHOTOSHOP.

And it just digresses from there. Just because there are two sides of an issue doesn't automatically indicate that both are valid. We fail over and over again in our society to perform the simple tests to prove validity.

And of course, everything I just said was just made up on the spot, so...it has no validity.

[dccorpsfan]

Chris...you are so on target. Our society has dismissed rhetoric because its hard and requires work. The lazy way out is to have representatives of two opposing viewpoints shout at each other. Like this:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Harry Queen Show. Tonight we have representatives from the World is Flat Society and a distinguished professor of Geology from Harvard University, Dr. Timothy Roundorb.

<Harry>: Mr. Roundorb, you propose in your recent paper a theory that the world is indeed round. How did you come to this conclusion.

<Rep. from World is Flat interrupts> Just a minute Harry...our reseach from an extensive study by going out and watching sunsets in Kansas conclusively proves the world is flat. I mean, Dr. Roundorb, have you even been to Kansas?

<Dr. Roundorb> Well, no, but clearly anyone can look at the scientific evide....

<Rep. from World is Flat interrupting again> See, there you go...YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO KANSAS SO HOW DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE WORLD ISN'T FLAT? Sure, you've got some "scientific" research, WELL OUR RESEARCH SHOWS CONCLUSIVELY THAT THE WORLD IS FLAT AS A PANCAKE. Just go to Kansas and see for yourself!

<Dr. Roundorb> OK, but as I was saying...when seen from space, here's photos from the International Space Station that clearly shows the...

<Rep. from World is Flat again interrupting> WERE YOU EVER IN SPACE? HOW DO WE EVEN KNOW SPACE EXISTS? HAVE YOU BEEN TO THIS "SPACE STATION" AS YOU CALL IT?

<Dr. Roundorb> Well, no...but these pictures...

<Rep. from World is Flat again interrupting> AH HAH! PHOTOGRAPHS CAN BE DOCTORED, DOCTOR CAN'T THEY? I'VE HEARD OF PHOTOSHOP.

And it just digresses from there. Just because there are two sides of an issue doesn't automatically indicate that both are valid. We fail over and over again in our society to perform the simple tests to prove validity.

And of course, everything I just said was just made up on the spot, so...it has no validity.

Don't be so "glib", Tom :D

[Tom Brace]

Don't be so "glib", Tom :D

I respectfully disagree with your assessment sir.

[Lancerlady]

You know Jim, this is a great subject that really needs to be addressed here, but I don't really know if it will do any good. Right now I'm in a situation where several people who post here hate my posts (I know they do) so they want to flame arguments and lodge personal attacks against me.

That crosses the line of someone not agreeing with your opinion. I try my best not to get involved with those who hate it just because a strong minded woman has a difference of opinion and has the guts to speak her mind. If they think that lodging insults is appropriate, I really feel sorry for them.

I don't know what to think anymore.

It's like you can't have a different point of view on here anymore, it's really sad and disheartening.

Sad when people hate because of your opinion.

Edited July 11, 2007 by Lancerlady

[KeepOnFoodTruckin]

I am going to blame "keyboard hubris" on this one.

It's so easy to be blatantly opinionated and spew things from behind a screen that would be boorish and just plain ill-mannered in a face-to-face conversation.

I can only speak for myself but I try very hard to read over a post before I make it and lay it against the "would I say this to someone's face" test. I then count to 10 and read it again before I hit the submit button, remembering my words are all you have to base your response on and I consider it my responsibility to present myself in a way that honors not only myself but my hard-working marcher who is devoting her life, sweat and pain to this activity.

I see things on here, and ignore them or laugh at them. Some grate, some make me think "Your English teacher really should have tried harder," and occasionally (ok, more than occasionally) I think, "Oh Sugar, your mama wouldn't approve."

But then, I'm a southern raised woman and being "common" and "ill-mannered" is considered contemptable. Magnolia-mouthed dissent is an art form down here, so if I am going to disagree with you I'll always preface it with a "Sugar" or "Darlin'" :)

Edited July 11, 2007 by KeepOnFoodTruckin