Curtis Costanza and The Bluecoats

[drumbro13]

Can't wait to go to critique when some of you people are judging. I'm sure all your numbers will be perfectly accurate and nobody will have any complaints about your interpretation of the criteria. Who knew there were so many qualified judges on DCP??

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I find online complaints singling out judges to be distasteful, immature and devoid of class. (I feel the same way when George Hopkins whines about numbers on his blog.) I just don't agree with calling into question a judge's personal integrity without proof of any intentional wrong doing, OR without that judge's ability to come online and defend themselves. It's a competition and judges are human and they have their opinions just like everyone else. Nobody said we have to agree with them every time, but what's going on here is a borderline witch hunt.

i'd rather see distasteful, immature, devoid of class posts over being purely naive.

so you have a gripe with bluecoats, and it's obvious. get over it.

i could understand if they just had a bad year in the previous, but that's not the case. their colorguard has had some issues this year, but you're going to seriously tell me that one judge out of the many available is seeing certain things?

sorry, but some of you are just naive and looking for a corps to fail. how many pro sports games have you seen where a ref or ump have made some total BS calls, and the team on the receiving end has had problems with the guy before? i know personally i've seen a ton.

my solution: get a tape of a performance, sit him in a room with 5 other "well respected" judges, and have them score bluecoats/troopers GE vis or colorguard. THEN if the scores seem a little odd, questioning can proceed.

i know the scores shouldn't matter, but when i was out there busting my butt to perfect something, i wanted it all. 1st place in everything world champion. i mean, that's some of the point in competition, right? to be the best?

sorry it's just disheartening. i feel bad for those kids. it's like they're being punished for others stupidity and inability to call someone out and actually take charge of the situation.

Edited July 30, 2007 by drumbro13

[dcfan07]

Any judge that had the Cavaliers over BD in Vis Ensemble Sat night is pretty much blind IMO. Sorry, it wasn't even close.

Snare mom and Old time Drummer.....

I wasn't at the show Saturday evening so can't comment on my own opinion of the visual performance of either BD or Cavaliers. I might well have agreed with you or disagreed, I don't know so won't pretend to be able to effectively evaluate those performances. The grand total difference in that caption that night was only 1 tenth with Cavies up 2 tenths in Comp and BD up 1 tenth in Excellence. By ANYONE's definition, that means the judge felt on any given night it could have gone the other way.

You have however, both made it very clear that in your opinion the judge in charge of evaluating Vis Ensemble missed it completely that night. I'd be interested to hear your specific explanations for how you arrived at this conclusion in relation to the critieria on the sheet that the Judge is required to utilize.

Let's discuss your definitions, understanding and evaluation of the following criteria.

Logical development over time

Quality use of the elements of design

Expressive effort qualities

Clarity of Emphasis

Depth and Layering over time

Totality and Unity

Variety in Design

Use of Stage, Colors and Props in Design

Visual Musicality

Or how about your definitions, understanding and evaluations of the following from the performance side of the sheet

Demonstration of Training

Techniques for Ensemble Cohesiveness

Clarity of Form, Body and Equipment

Precision throughout the ensemble

Variety of Responsibilities

Challenge of Form body and Equipment

Consideration of the Overall Environment

Response to the Challenges of Music

Please be aware, I have no affiliation with either corps, so no dog in that fight.... doesn't matter to me, just in general I'm bothered by what I see of so many of us fans. We gripe and complain about "slotting" but when corps scores bump around much at all from night to night, or corps have different placements in different captions on the same night, many of the same people who complain about slotting are the first to raise #### screaming "INCONSISTENT SCORING FROM NIGHT TO NIGHT" or "How can the XYZ's be 1st in Visual Ensemble but 4th in Visual Effect, it's just not possible". Well one thing you should always consider is WHY do we always assume that the HIGHER number for our favorite corps was the right one? Why should we assume that they should have been first in GE and not 4th in both??

We as fans are often quick to criticize judging decisions we disagree with (and that's our right, we bought the ticket). Often however, most of us forget that we are not asked to evaluate the corps on the specific criteria that the corps directors have asked the judges to. They are trained over time and DO have an understanding of all those elements. In ANY major regional, you can rest assured that the folks allowed to judge at those shows are ones who have proven their ability to get it right a HIGH percentage of the time over the years.

Will the judges miss it on occasion? Is the Pope Catholic? Are there judges who bring their specific backgrounds, likes and dislikes to the table?? I would venture to say everyone of them does, just as any of us would if we were judging. Do I think that there may be some out there that are not as highly qualified to judge as others? Absolutely, but I put at least a LITTLE faith in the folks in the judging hierarchy at DCI to make sure that come the end of the season, the most reliable, most impartial and most knowledgeable folks will be judging when it's for all the marbles.

In the end result, I would guess that the judging community does the best it can with the constantly evolving system they are asked to utilize by the corps directors and most of us would be hard pressed to get it right NEAR as often as the overall community manages to in any given year.

mg

[SNModdison]

I was the one who started this brush fire yesterday and I have read with some interest the 60 some posts about this topic. I will try to refrain from adding anything else after this. Thank you all for posting, regardless of whether you agree with my vitrolic first post or not. I appreciate the dialogue that's been created here and I hope you take what I am saying now in the spirit of continued dialogue.

We would all like to think judges who judge competitions are fair and honest. Of course, judges have favorites and they see things about one corps or another they like or dislike. This is all part of the natural process of judging and no reasonable person would quibble about the process. Umpires and referees miss calls in sports all the time. That's obvious, especially in the age of instant replay. What you hope is that these very natural tendencies to like or dislike a certain style of play or performance in DCI judging does not sully the end results. I have every reason to expect judges talk to one another about what they see on the field and try to explain their scores not only to the corps they are judging but to each other. This is how the process should work in a perfect world.

That said, if you look at the hard numbers, there is a problem with this judge and the way he judges the Bluecoats and the Trropers. When I posted my remarks, I did not realize he was judging the Troopers as harshly as he has been judging the Bluecoats. (By "harsh" I mean giving both corps scores well below what they had been receiving from other visual effect judges). As Nero14 pointed out in post 19 of this thread, there is a link between the Troopers and the Bluecoats in Mitch Rogers. That both corps have shows on the field designed by Rogers and that both are being underscored by this judge is irrefutable. Look at the scores! (Thanks to Nero for doing the research and for making the connection).

This information strongly suggests this particular judge has a personal beef with Rogers, the visual designer of the Troopers and the Bluecoats, and may be using his position as a judge to punish these corps because of their association with Rogers. While this is a strong inference to make, a cursury glance at the judge's scores of the Troopers and the Bluecoats this year and last year leads one to make this inference. This needs to be explored at the highest levels of DCI. We can hope that our discussion on this thread might provoke a discussion among the judges and perhaps even lead to a clearing of the air between the judge in question and Mitch Rogers. It is human for personal animosities between people to color their judgment of one another. But it's not too antagonistic to suggest here that it is unprofessional for a judge to allow such personal animosities to hurt innocent people, in this case the kids who march in the Troopers and the Bluecoats.

I can accept that disagreements between reasonable people are part of this activity. I can agree with many of the posts here that argue different judges can see the same show in vastly different ways and that we should respect their opinions and their scores. Nevertheless, I would like fans and members of other corps to ask what they could do in this kind of situation. Should we just be quiet about it and hope the problem goes away all by itself or make a stink? I hate to be perceived as a chronic complainer, but it just doesn't seem fair on the face of it.

I agree it is not nice to "name names." But the Bluecoats have worked very, very hard to crack the top 5 in DCI. As far as I know, they HAVE used the proper and official DCI channels to try to get past this judge. If fans of the Cadets, Cavvies, Phantom Regiment and Blue Devils can show us Bluecoats fans evidence of a single judge who is consistently marking them well-below the judging norm, I will stand corrected and come back and post an apology to all of you. I mean no slight to any of the other corps. For all I know, you may well have grievances with a particular judge too. If you do, it would almost make me feel better about the one we have a beef with. Otherwise, I think it is fair to suggest you would probably make the same inferences we have. This judge seems to be holding a grudge. We're not asking for any special favors from the judges. We just want a level playing field.

I highly doubt that he would be punishing these two corps because of a personal beef. Now...not liking the visual package put out by one individual...now that's a whole different story. Like for me...I'm SO over Blue Devils drill, that I can't say I'd give them the highest GE Vis # in the world.

Just my thoughts.

[cowtown]

Any judge that had the Cavaliers over BD in Vis Ensemble Sat night is pretty much blind IMO. Sorry, it wasn't even close.

word !!!

I think what becomes clear in this thread is that none of you really have the knowledge or ability to even question the judging of DCI. All DCI judging and scores are as impeccable as all NBA refs’ calls.

For you fans out there that are watching the shows, have years of expierence in the activity but still wish to make unqualified, ill-informed comments about what you see on the field and then question the judges…

think of that Richard Pryor line and alter it a bit ‘who you going to believe, the DCI judges or your own lying eyes?’

[rut-roh]

so you have a gripe with bluecoats, and it's obvious. get over it.

I do???? Since when? I LOVE the Bluecoats this year! One of my favorite shows of the season, and I'm terrifically happy to see them alter some peoples conceptions about who they are and where they can go competitively in DCI. They've been one of my favorites corps since the turn of this century, always eager to see what they bring to the table.

[nero14]

Interesting way to earn respect. I'm not singling out a judge here, I'm merely stating the facts and then you ask yourself the question WHAT????? IS HE SEEING????

Troopers score a 15.8 Visual Effect on 8/26. Their very next show in Denver they score a 13.7 ?

I'm with Hopkins on this one, a 21 tenth point drop show to show. Something is seriously amiss here.

Not only that, the last time the Troopers recieved a Visual Effect score that was even comparable to the 13.7 score they got in Denver was way,way, way back in Allentown when they got a 13.3 in Visusal Effect. Who was the judge that night, you guessed it, MR. well respected himself.

i am 100% with you on that- and i couldn't agree with you more- i brought up something earlier that nobody else commented on-

both the troopers and bluecoats have THE SAME VISUAL DESIGNER (mitch rogers)...

and both corps got hosed in GE vis (especially troopers- 3 shows of mid to upper 15s in GE vis down to 13.7? TELL me somethings not wrong with that score) .... is it just me or does that seem like its probably NOT a coincidence? I'd really like some feedback on that... anybody?

it would be kinda like if spirit and cavies got bashed in GE vis at the same show- Gains does them both- there's a connection there...

[cowtown]

i am 100% with you on that- and i couldn't agree with you more- i brought up something earlier that nobody else commented on-

both the troopers and bluecoats have THE SAME VISUAL DESIGNER (mitch rogers)...

and both corps got hosed in GE vis (especially troopers- 3 shows of mid to upper 15s in GE vis down to 13.7? TELL me somethings not wrong with that score) .... is it just me or does that seem like its probably NOT a coincidence? I'd really like some feedback on that... anybody?

it would be kinda like if spirit and cavies got bashed in GE vis at the same show- Gains does them both- there's a connection there...

Maybe its as simple as the judge does not like the way he designs shows. Maybe he’s not seeing something in either shows that he is looking for – maybe the same ‘mistakes’ or design flaws are in both shows?

I don’t really know, just trying to help you out here but I do agree it looks a bit fishy maybe it’s a case of good loving gone bad?

I think its best to dig into both of their personal pasts and see where they cross and how they cross (that’s a joke btw)

[CoastGuard]

Mike Gaines is no longer the visual designer for Spirit.

[kdaddy]

both the troopers and bluecoats have THE SAME VISUAL DESIGNER (mitch rogers)...

I thought he was just the drill writer.

[oldtimedrummer]

Snare mom and Old time Drummer.....

Let's discuss your definitions, understanding and evaluation of the following criteria.

Logical development over time

Quality use of the elements of design

Expressive effort qualities

Clarity of Emphasis

Depth and Layering over time

Totality and Unity

Variety in Design

Use of Stage, Colors and Props in Design

Visual Musicality

Or how about your definitions, understanding and evaluations of the following from the performance side of the sheet

Demonstration of Training

Techniques for Ensemble Cohesiveness

Clarity of Form, Body and Equipment

Precision throughout the ensemble

Variety of Responsibilities

Challenge of Form body and Equipment

Consideration of the Overall Environment

Response to the Challenges of Music

MG, for the sake of bandwidth I won't give you a play by play on the definitions, but rest assured I have a clear understanding of them. PM me if you like. Let me make it clear that I'm NOT trying to beat up the Cavaliers. They have consistently had the best visual design hands down over the past ten years. There's nobody that has more respect for the Cavaliers design team than me. Gaines, Bruno, and the rest are at the top of their field..... BUT......... Sat night, the Green team didn't march very well, especially for a team that's trying to win nationals. I think if you take all those definitions and terms and apply George O's excellent principles of Derived Achievement to the performances we witnessed, you'll come the same conclusion, that it really wasn't close. Granted my use of the terms "blind" and "stumbling" may have been a bit harsh, but I'll stick to my opinion.