QUESTION about Hopkins, Blame

[MikeD]

You still haven't answered the question I have asked you twice now. Every member volunteers for their position. What happens to them when, after trying out, being awarded the spot and accepting the position, they say "no, I won't do what you are telling me to do?"

I don't know, as it did not happen. I could see them being let go, I guess, if they were marching a spot designed for a narrator. Or maybe they'd jsut switch with someone else who agreed to do the narration, if that was an option. I don't know either way.

You are talking about narration in as if it is somehow different than ANY part. If they gave the person a 1st trumpet part and he/she said they did not want to perform it they'd be gone, so why would/should this be any different? Maybe there is a valid reason for the person to not be able to play the part, so they might move them to 2nd (say...new braces or something). It's hard to discuss this in a vacuum without context.

[Liam]

You still haven't answered the question I have asked you twice now. Every member volunteers for their position. What happens to them when, after trying out, being awarded the spot and accepting the position, they say "no, I won't do what you are telling me to do?"

I don't know -- what happens to anyone in any corps when they say "no, I won't do what you are telling me to do?".

Let's try some conjecture -- since that's all we have right now

-- If someone is obstinate and REFUSES to do something, then they will probably have to quit. Why would you pay money to be a part of something and then refuse to be a part of it?

-- If someone simply can't do what is asked of them -- the solo is too hard, etc. They would likely be reassigned back into a non-featured role as best as could ba accommodated.

--If someone has a philosophical difference -- religious/personal/whatever -- I guess it depends on how deep that difference is. If it's just not wanting to play a certain part (the undressing dancer in bluecoats show, for example), I'm sure the corps would try to accommodate to not make someone do something their uncomfortable with. If you decided you're uncomforatble too late in the year and the drill is set, that might be a bit of a problem and you may have to sit out if it all can't be reworked. If your philosophical problem rises to the level of the entire nature of the show, then maybe you should quit if you feel that strongly about it. Odds are you would figure that out pretty quickly in camp if a show was going to be so distasteful that you couldn't bring yourself to even particpate.

Bottom line -- I think corps will accommodate as best they can -- beyond that you have a choice to make because the corps must go on for everyone.

I can't believe that you couldn't have guessed all of this on your own, which again, makes me wonder why you keep coming back to this as if this particular situation with the Cadets is somehow different than evry member at every corps every year.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Liam

[MikeD]

The way I see it, you have it exactly right, 100%. Some how, people are applying the "disingeniuous" comment to being my attitude, when it is not. I have only pointed out that no member has the choices the narrators spoke of once they have accepted the spots awarded to them by the drum corps. It's that simple, yet everyone arguing with me seems to think that the members can choose whatever they want, whenever they want.

Did you see this....

"Also, Nick has just confirmed that narrators were not set in stone until around spring training, meaning they knew exactly what words they were volunteering to say."

[Liam]

Hey, you all gave me that bag. You all keep asking me questions and I keep answering them. Then you wonder why I keep posting. But that's OK, I can handle the punches.

Well not really -- I replied to X DM twice and then you responded to me both times as if I were questioning you. No biggie, the posts fly fast and furious sometimes but I think you got pinned with a side of the argument that you never had because you responded a bit quickly to questions not even posed to you. It's funny, but I think these last few pages have all been folks arguing basically the same side but misinterpreting the responses thinking that the others were disagreeing. :)

[sssidney]

Actors act. That's their job, to step outside of themselves and become the character that was created by someone else. It's as simple as that.

That pretty much what I said. I was hoping to find a problem with the logic but I can't. Actors reciting lines is new to drum corps so some people are having a problem with it. Those people need to get over it. I just wish the presentation wasn't so Country Bear Jamboree because the poor presentation may actually end up being a roadblock to further innovation in this area.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

could have fooled me...

I guess you could argue you never said those exact words, but why else would someone refuse to speak the narration part unless they had some sort of problem with it...

we are just connecting the dots here

Since you have no idea of what I am talking about, or what I was saying in my posts, let me connect the dots for you, correctly...

QUOTE(DrumCorpsFan27 @ Aug 17 2007, 10:56 AM)

So, what do you suppose happens to someone who refuses to do the part handed to them, be it narration, equipment twirling or musical parts? What happens to the person who looks the director in the eye and says "no, I won't do that."?

A simple question. I never said that the narrators wanted to do this. I was just pointing out that their choices are quite limited. Do it or don't. I ask, hypothetically, what would happen if anyone refused to to the parts they were told to perform. You, quite mistakenly, have taken that to mean that I believe the narrators did not want to perform the written words. NO WHERE have I ever said that. That is your mistaken assumption.

QUOTE(DrumCorpsFan27 @ Aug 17 2007, 11:01 AM)

I did not assume that they were duped. They tried out and were awarded the spot. If the staff were unable to sway George's prose, what sway do you think a member is going to have. What happens if he says, after so many camps and a drill spot created uniquely for him, he then says I don't want to do this?

Here I am correcting another false assumption that you have made, and stick to no matter how many times I correct you. You said that I assumed they were duped. I said I did not. Then, I reiterate the question that no one seems to want to answer, what happens if they refuse to do wha they are told to do? You stated that George was a reasonable guy. I pointed out that if he was not going to listen to his staff on this, he certainly wasn't going to listen to a member about it. However, that is still in the hypothetical. NO WHERE did I say this actually happened, but merely ask, "what if...?"

QUOTE(DrumCorpsFan27 @ Aug 17 2007, 11:21 AM)

Did they know the words they would be speaking when they tried out?

I never said they felt uncomfortable with the content. Another poster was asking if it was their words and making a big deal about them talking about having choices. I just pointed out that their only choice was to read it or not, just like any other position in any drum corps.

Nope, you missed the point again. This issue is someone who tries out for a spot, is awarded the spot and accepts it. Then, two months down the road is handed parts that s/he doesn't want to do and says "no, I won't do that." That's the issue being debated here.

Here, you are so far off base it is incredible. You have used a quote where I explicitly say that I had never said they were uncomfortable but responding to a different post. I again repeated that the narrators, like any other position, are given their parts, they don't choose them. And finally, I continue to ask the question that no one answers. NO WHERE do I say these things actually occurred.

QUOTE(DrumCorpsFan27 @ Aug 17 2007, 11:26 AM)

You still haven't answered the question I have asked you twice now. Every member volunteers for their position. What happens to them when, after trying out, being awarded the spot and accepting the position, they say "no, I won't do what you are telling me to do?"

All this post asks is the same hypotheitical question again. NO WHERE do I even mention them actually not liking their parts. You say I do that.So, I have said those exact words you quoted. NO WHERE does it say that they actually say they had a problem with it. The only thing I have said about that is that we don't know whether they had a problem with that. In fact, I have gone on to say, many times which you choose to ignore, that I accept that they know they are actors and were quite willing to say the parts whether they agreed with them or not. Did you miss that dot??? Your trying to take an hypothetical question and say that I am saying that the narrators did not like what they are saying. My response to that, for the umpteenth time is no, no, no, no and no. You are wrong.Get it?

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I don't know, as it did not happen. I could see them being let go, I guess, if they were marching a spot designed for a narrator. Or maybe they'd jsut switch with someone else who agreed to do the narration, if that was an option. I don't know either way.

You are talking about narration in as if it is somehow different than ANY part. If they gave the person a 1st trumpet part and he/she said they did not want to perform it they'd be gone, so why would/should this be any different? Maybe there is a valid reason for the person to not be able to play the part, so they might move them to 2nd (say...new braces or something). It's hard to discuss this in a vacuum without context.

But Mike, what you just wrote is exactly what I have been saying would happen all along. In most cases, if the member refused to do the part, not because of braces, but because they didn't like the part they were given, then what happens. You have finally answered it, in which you confirm that my hypothesis is legitimate. Certainly, I would not think that a first soprano, who gets braces in May would be cut. Of course, I would expect accomodations to be made. Look at what they did to keep the mello soloist in 1984. So, I never failed to provide the context. The context was always the same, what if the member refused to do a part that they tried out for, was awarded and then accepted. The just say to the director, "no I don't want to do this." That context is quite clear, IMO.

[MikeD]

And finally, I continue to ask the question that no one answers. NO WHERE do I say these things actually occurred.All this post asks is the same hypotheitical question again.

Well, I said this in a reply to you about 5 posts up in answer to your question....(even left in the typos)

I don't know, as it did not happen. I could see them being let go, I guess, if they were marching a spot designed for a narrator. Or maybe they'd jsut switch with someone else who agreed to do the narration, if that was an option. I don't know either way.

You are talking about narration in as if it is somehow different than ANY part. If they gave the person a 1st trumpet part and he/she said they did not want to perform it they'd be gone, so why would/should this be any different? Maybe there is a valid reason for the person to not be able to play the part, so they might move them to 2nd (say...new braces or something). It's hard to discuss this in a vacuum without context.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I don't know -- what happens to anyone in any corps when they say "no, I won't do what you are telling me to do?".

Let's try some conjecture -- since that's all we have right now

-- If someone is obstinate and REFUSES to do something, then they will probably have to quit. Why would you pay money to be a part of something and then refuse to be a part of it?

-- If someone simply can't do what is asked of them -- the solo is too hard, etc. They would likely be reassigned back into a non-featured role as best as could ba accommodated.

--If someone has a philosophical difference -- religious/personal/whatever -- I guess it depends on how deep that difference is. If it's just not wanting to play a certain part (the undressing dancer in bluecoats show, for example), I'm sure the corps would try to accommodate to not make someone do something their uncomfortable with. If you decided you're uncomforatble too late in the year and the drill is set, that might be a bit of a problem and you may have to sit out if it all can't be reworked. If your philosophical problem rises to the level of the entire nature of the show, then maybe you should quit if you feel that strongly about it. Odds are you would figure that out pretty quickly in camp if a show was going to be so distasteful that you couldn't bring yourself to even particpate.

Bottom line -- I think corps will accommodate as best they can -- beyond that you have a choice to make because the corps must go on for everyone.

I can't believe that you couldn't have guessed all of this on your own, which again, makes me wonder why you keep coming back to this as if this particular situation with the Cadets is somehow different than evry member at every corps every year.

I never said this was particular to The Cadets. I have, in fact, explicitly said that it would be similar in any other corps. Why is it that you guys ignore my very words and then argue that I am saying the opposite? All I did was as a hypothetical question, given in a very specific context which you an Mike have finally given answers to. Read all of my posts and you will see that is exactly what has happened all along in this thread.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Did you see this....

"Also, Nick has just confirmed that narrators were not set in stone until around spring training, meaning they knew exactly what words they were volunteering to say."

I saw that. I was still asking a hypothetical question. Regardless, we still do not know that, when the narrators were selected, that they were told what they would be saying. All we know is that they were selected in the spring. Maybe they knew, maybe they didn't.