QUESTION about Hopkins, Blame

[X DM]

Can't ..... resist .... urge ..... to respond .......

I'm trying very hard to be respectful in my responses to you, which is why I have opted for analogies and humor so far in my responses.

I will try again, albeit a little more straightforward. Earlier I quoted excerpts from a Hamlet speech -- the "to be or not to be" speech. This, too, is about choices in life, about finding the courage to stand up to adversity, about creating your own path. Are you seriously going to tell me that every actor who has portrayed Hamlet over the cenuturies is disingenous because they are talking about life choices when they didn't choose the words to say?

I think where the disconnect is coming is that you are thinking of these members as speaking for themselves. I think that is incorrect. They are performers acting the part of a drum corps member in a production about drum corps and reading their lines about the experience accordingly. Like the actors in the show Entourage are playing actors. Doesn't mean that their experiences on the show are all personal -- they are "acting" the role of an "actor" written for them by someone else. Here, these are drum corps members performing the role of drum corps members, also written by someone else. I don't know if that one guy in the Cadets really does or doesn't like basic blocks -- what I do know is that he was representing the portrayal of a member who did not.

If you're still unable (or unwilling) to see what I am saying, than I don't think I can help you to see this perspective any better.... :)

I do believe I understand your point that, like Hamlet, the words in the play ( or show ) were provided to the performers, and that the performers are not speaking for themselves but to portray a feeling or message that is typical of drum corps members ( in the eyes of the author who wrote the words for the performers ). But the analogy while compelling in support of The staff at The Cadets does omit some obvious differences. First, the actors that portray Hamlet are given WIDE lattitude in interpreting the words of the author. Actors do not get instruction from Shakespeare on where and how to stand. They get no input from Shaskespeare, as Shakespeare is long deceased. Shakespeare's Hamlet theme likewise is not about the " Value of Choices ", and Hamlet does not utter .... " I believe in Choice..... It is my life...... and I get to choose ". Had Shakespeare organized a theme for Hamlet that involved the value of choices and utiilzed these similar words, Shakespeare's Hamlet would not become the literary classic that it has become. Actors who portray Hamlet interpret the authors words and portrayal of the role as they THINK Shakespeare would have liked. The narrators for the Cadets had no such interpretive powers. They were told what to say, when to say it, when not to say it, where to stand, where not to stand, and even how to say it. The fact that the theme was about the "value of choices" and who gets to decide is as far removed from what Hamlet actors do in their portrayal of Shakespeares Hamlet as can be. And it is not about degree either. If you can't understand the difference between an actors interpretive portrayal on stage of the deceased writer Shakespeares written" Hamlet " and that of the Director of a Corps making all the decisions with the narrators in a Drum Corps show regarding a theme about " The value of choices " and selecting words for them, ie " It's my life and I get to choose " etc, then frankly I can't help you any further understand the stark differences.

Edited August 17, 2007 by X DM

[DrumCorpsFan27]

And what would that be David???

Instead of having the horns snap up, they used system that made them look like the whole corps was on hydrolics (sp?). It was really cool.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

What you are calling a mere "hypothetical question" is coming across, at least to me, as some sort of attack on The Cadets and Hoppy. Maybe you did not intend it that way, but that's how I read it...esp given your positions over time.

Anybody who has been on these boards over time knows my position, this is true. However, the only attack I may have mentioned is that I think that Hopkins is more likely than other directors to implement his vision even to the dislike of staff, members and/or audiences...even other directors. Otherwise, no attack intended. The hypothetical question came from a post in a thread that happens to deal with Hopkins and The Cadets.

Edited August 17, 2007 by DrumCorpsFan27

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Okay, so if we can dispense with all of our other back-and-forths since now we see (hopefully) that we all basically agree :) .....

I'd like to examine this.

I agree -- it seems that this side of the design has not been brought up to speed in terms of writing, technique, training, judging etc. I suppose the answer is we have to give it time for the corps to start to get their arms around what is required to bring this aspect forward more professionally. I do think that the kinds of use are getting more varied/experimental than just strictly "narrating", but I agree that its time for the corps to start improving this aspect of the production to get up to par with the world-class training and execution of the rest of the show.

OK, so how much time do we need to give it? Drum corps has had it for four years now (marching band a lot more) and it is still amaturish.

[Officer_Jenny]

I do believe I understand your point that, like Hamlet, the words in the play ( or show ) were provided to the performers, and that the performers are not speaking for themselves but to portray a feeling or message that is typical of drum corps members ( in the eyes of the author who wrote the words for the performers ). But the analogy while compelling in support of The staff at The Cadets does omit some obvious differences. First, the actors that portray Hamlet are given WIDE lattitude in interpreting the words of the author. Most actors do not get instruction from Shakespeare on where and how to stand. They get no input from Shskespeare, as Shakespeare is long deceased. Shakespeare's Hamlet theme likewise is not about the " value of Choices ", and Hamlet does not utter .... " I believe in Choice..... It is my life...... and I get to choose ". Had Shakespeare organized a theme for Hamlet that involved the value of choices and utiilzed these similar words, Shakespeare's Hamlet would not become the literary classic that it has become. Actors who portray Hamlet interpret the authors words and portrayal of the role as they THINK Shakespeare would have liked. The narrators for the Cadets had no such interpretive powers. They were told what to say, when to say it, when not to say it, where to stand, where not to stand, and even how to say it. The fact that the theme was about the value of choices and who gets to decide is as far removed from what Hamlet actors do in their portrayal of Shakespeares Hamlet as can be. And it is not about degree either. If you can't understand the difference between an actors portrayal of the deceased writer Shakespeares Hamlet and that of the Director of a Corps making all the decisions wuth the narrators in a Drum Corps show regarding a theme about " The value of choices " and selecting words for them, ie " It's my life and I get to choose, etc, then frankly I can't help you any further understand the stark difference.

This is nonsense. Most productions - whether it be a drum corps show, opera, ballet, theater, etc. - have performers who are told exactly what to do by the director. Depending on the genre of the production there may be some indeterminacy, but we all know drum corps is not conducive to that school of thought (Cage, Penderecki, etc.).

And with the Shakespeare thing, I'm sure he was controlling over staging, delivery, and other aesthetic items when he was still living. If someone does a recreation of The Cadets 2007 production several hundred years later, then I'm sure you'll find some variations, but this was the first time it was done and Hopkins and the other design staff are still living, in case you were wondering.

EDIT- Also, no one ever claimed that the theme or quality of words in The Cadets 2007 production are of the same level of Shakespeare. You're right, if Hamlet was full Hopkins writing instead of Shakespeare, it would not be a classic. But remember, this is a drum corps show, which is a youth activity with 11 minute shows on a football field. The music is laughable compared to major musical works of our time and the narration is laughable compared to major literary works. But within the genre of marching arts, it's great stuff. So just enjoy it.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Officer_Jenny

[George82]

Instead of having the horns snap up, they used system that made them look like the whole corps was on hydrolics (sp?). It was really cool.

Spoken like a true outsider David. How do I know...b/c I was there. I marched with her (Barbara Maroney in case you didn't know what her name is) for two years before the change in bringing the horns up was made. It was not changed to accomodate her. It was changed in 1983 simply to be different. The corps was in the midst of forging a new identity which we could call our own and not be anything like any other corps in DCI.

Edited August 17, 2007 by George82

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Can't ..... resist .... urge ..... to respond .......

I'm trying very hard to be respectful in my responses to you, which is why I have opted for analogies and humor so far in my responses.

I will try again, albeit a little more straightforward. Earlier I quoted excerpts from a Hamlet speech -- the "to be or not to be" speech. This, too, is about choices in life, about finding the courage to stand up to adversity, about creating your own path. Are you seriously going to tell me that every actor who has portrayed Hamlet over the cenuturies is disingenous because they are talking about life choices when they didn't choose the words to say?

I think where the disconnect is coming is that you are thinking of these members as speaking for themselves. I think that is incorrect. They are performers acting the part of a drum corps member in a production about drum corps and reading their lines about the experience accordingly. Like the actors in the show Entourage are playing actors. Doesn't mean that their experiences on the show are all personal -- they are "acting" the role of an "actor" written for them by someone else. Here, these are drum corps members performing the role of drum corps members, also written by someone else. I don't know if that one guy in the Cadets really does or doesn't like basic blocks -- what I do know is that he was representing the portrayal of a member who did not.

If you're still unable (or unwilling) to see what I am saying, than I don't think I can help you to see this perspective any better.... :)

Here's an analogy that might help your point. Let's say that Steven Spielberg makes a movie and in it he has one of the actors say that he believes in choices and "this is my life." It is the actors job to recite the lines, as convincingly as possible. It's a part and the actor is playing a character. Same thing with The Cadets. The words he speaks are written by George Hopkins. George probably wants every member to truly believe those words, but the narrator is still a character in a production, just as if this were a movie.

[stifled4mallettechnique]

I've been trying to find a counter to the "they're just actors reciting their lines" argument. It does seem ironic that they are reciting scripted lines that have a theme of choice but hey they are actors. There are times when actors reciting lines doesn't work. Like if Robert Downey jr. was playing the role of a straight laced cop with a serious anti-drug message you would probably go "huh?" but for various reasons that doesn't apply here. Actors giving speeches is new to dc and some people are having a hard time with the concept. My only problem with it is that it seems so Disney stage show cheesy as opposed to maybe a cool Laurie Anderson performance art type thing that it could be if done right. I'm sure someone will get it right if they have the courage to keep trying.

Good points! I love Laurie! I'd love to hear something on the field like, "Que is mas macho? Marching Band or Drum Corps?" (Yeah... dunno how to do accents on my spanish typing... sorry.)

[X DM]

This is nonsense. Most productions - whether it be a drum corps show, opera, ballet, theater, etc. - have performers who are told exactly what to do by the director. Depending on the genre of the production there may be some indeterminacy, but we all know drum corps is not conducive to that school of thought (Cage, Penderecki, etc.).

And with the Shakespeare thing, I'm sure he was controlling over staging, delivery, and other aesthetic items when he was still living. If someone does a recreation of The Cadets 2007 production several hundred years later, then I'm sure you'll find some variations, but this was the first time it was done and Hopkins and the other design staff are still living, in case you were wondering.

Shakespeare, as I'm sure you are aware, was a Writer not a Stage Show Producer or Director. He wrote his stories for plays, but he was not involved in the actors portrayal of his works. When alive, Shakespeare was not involved in staging, delivery where the stage play " Hamlet" was performed as you said. He had NO such control as you think he did.. Even when alive. his writings were open to interpretation by directors, producers, actors world wide. And yes, I am well aware that the Director of The Cadets is " alive and kicking " and you are aware too that the Director was directly involved in all manner of staging and delivery of the show theme of his Corps, unlike that of the writer Shakespeare and his Hamlet interpretation by producers, directors and actors world wide.

Edited August 17, 2007 by X DM

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I can guarantee this b/c I have a relationship with the corps. I know and have talked with marching members of the corps. I've talked with staff. As an alum I keep a finger on what's going on there.

The situation of what went on in Pasadena has been clarified. George did not throw a "hissyfit" and threatned to pull the corps off the field if the hashes weren't repainted. Was he wrong for bowing to the crowd during the booing (which I loved b/c he doesn't often show that he's human), absolutely. He's acknowledged his mistake and has issued an apology. Bottom line...DCI screwed up. Even to further clarify....the CONTEST DIRECTOR screwed up for not being on top of the situation. The field was clearly in poor shape. This was not just any contest. This was the Drum Corps International World Championships. The culmination of many many months of hard work. Each member of each corps deserved to perform under optimum conditions as weather permits. I don't think there is a person out there who has marched or taught any drum corps who would want any less.

So much has been written by the so-called "detractors" that is solely based on conjecture and without an ounce of fact. If you don't like voice-overs as part of a drum corps program, fine. If you didn't like the manner in which it was instituted into the Cadets 2007 program, fine. The attacks on George Hopkins, the booing of the members on the field really needs to come to an end. Nothing is being accomplished by all the arguing and name-calling. I strongly feel that the actions of many present at Quaterfinals as well as in the theaters last thursday was fostered greatly by what has taken place here on DCP all summer long.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

The discussion over who created the written text, how the performers were chosen, did they or did they not have any input into the material is really none of your business nor is it any of mine. It simply doesn't matter. Alot of you folks are just reaching for things to keep the negativity going. Give it a rest. If you wish to dictate how a show is programmed then step up to the plate and start a corps of your own. Run it the way you want to.

All of you "armchair program directors" really need to act more adult and find a more constructive way to voice your displeasure with the direction drum corps in DCI are headed. Write to Dan Acheson and tell him how you feel. If a petition regarding pending rules changes don't work then take it a step further and organize a form of protest at the actual rules congress if you're that passionate. If you have an issue with Hop, send him an email, call him at the office, walk up to him at a show hold out your hand and introduce yourself, ask him if he has a moment to talk with you. When a corps comes onto the field and you don't like their show go get a hot dog...visit the souvie area and support the drum corps you really like. Booing is not the answer b/c when all is said and done it's the performer who suffers in the end. I've said this before, hiding behind a screen name in total or even partial anonnymity is too easy and accomplishes absolutely nothing.

The Cadets have been pushing the envelope for 25 years now. That's not going to change anytime soon. As an alum I would be disappointed if it did.

So, you know for a fact that each and every Cadet member agrees totally with Hopkins' outlook? There isn't one who disagrees, yet marched because they wanted to be in The Cadets for what ever reason, not one?

I don't know where this rant about booing came from. I was not in Pasadena or any theare. I have never booed a corps and I have done several of the things you suggest people do.