When it's time to walk away-

[Dale Bari]

just saying

the definiton of innovative seems to refute your theory that it isn't the existance or non-existance of said tools.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/innovative

Uh oh, Ben, now you've done it.

Here's a good rule I learned a while back: Never quote something objective, like a definition, to MikeD. It won't do you any good. I burned up a lot of electrons arguing that his statement "Micced narration is musical innovation" was a non-sequitur, like saying "Prose is poetry." To no avail.

To the slightly larger point of doing something that bands have been doing for years and calling it "innovation", I have a couple of thoughts:

1 - If bands have been doing it for 20-25 years, and there are thousands of competitive marching bands out there, wouldn't they have put amps and electronics through all of their paces by now? Could there be anything "innovative" left to do? Why not just drop the whole "innovation" argument - facade, really - and stand on the point that you just happen to like the corps using amps/electronics?

Besides, there should be many designers and technicians who are experts in using the equipment already. Why are the pro-amp people claiming that we should suffer through more years of buzzing amps and inconsistent volume levels until DCI corps work out the bugs and "perfect" the system?

2 - (This is an old argument) For many years, the band world copied what the corps world did, in terms of show programming, teaching techniques, and drill ideas, which proves the old saw "Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door." For the last few years, however, all the pro-change people have been claiming that innovation in drum corps can only come from borrowing from the band world. Well, who's beating a path to whose door now? It's obvious that the pro-change types believe that bands have the better mousetrap. Yet, they claim that using it in corps is "innovative". (For assistance with that logic, please dial 1-800-SOP-HIST.)

As far as the OP goes, he's where I was a while back: questioning whether DCI is still worth the investment of time and money. My answer is: if you're already asking yourself that question, find something else to do with your time and money. If golf is more fun than corps, go hit the links. You can check back in every once in a while, but don't let corps watching dominate your spare time.

I go to my one DCI show (Westminster) each year, just to see if anything has improved. (This year was better.) But, to me, DCI has completed its mission of becoming just like marching band. I get the same reaction to the corps as I do the bands: it's nice to spend an evening near the grass and under the lights to hear some music on the move, but the emotional connection is just as tepid and tissue-thin. Most themes are just as vapid and self-important as I the ones I view on Saturday nights in the fall.

The most enjoyable corps (and bands) are the ones that go out there and try to let 'er rip, with the least intellectual and introspective ideas. I enjoyed HS bands from Chantilly, Herndon, and Kiski a lot more in recent years than Cadets, Crossmen, and Boston. And, I enjoyed Phantom and Crown this year way more than any corps in the last several years, esp Cadets. But I expect that will be the exception, and not the beginning of any trend.

I do love drum corps, but I've left DCI behind for the most part. Here's a telling stat: This weekend, I will be attending my 13th consecutive DCA Championships. (It will be the first time that I attend without performing.) I will watch Prelims (taking my babies to see their grandparents on Sunday), and I will enjoy it immensely - without probably anything "innovative" in sight.

[MikeD]

Uh oh, Ben, now you've done it.

Here's a good rule I learned a while back: Never quote something objective, like a definition, to MikeD. It won't do you any good. I burned up a lot of electrons arguing that his statement "Micced narration is musical innovation" was a non-sequitur, like saying "Prose is poetry." To no avail.

Wow. Nothing like a backhand slap.

I don't mind Ben putting up a definition, as it totally backs my assertion.

And...micced narration can indeed be innovative...or not.

[RegimentContra94]

I guess what I don't understand, and don't mean any disrespect by, is the product that most of the "old timers" for lack of a better term, describe is readily available. DCA is exactly what a lot of people are looking for but not finding in DCI. So why come to a DCI board and bemoan the fact that it isn't what you want? It's like coming to Taco Bell and complaining because they don't have any hamburgers! Go to Hardees, my friends! Get the Thickburger! I still like tacos, and that's ok! I also like an occasional burger. If the thing you want is right there, go get it.

[Dale Bari]

Wow. Nothing like a backhand slap.

I don't mind Ben putting up a definition, as it totally backs my assertion.

And...micced narration can indeed be innovative...or not.

Well, you have to admit, nothing was solved or even agreed to in that discussion. You stuck to your point, and no definition I used made an impression.

Besides, that argument was about the use of the word "musical" (not "innovation") with reference to narration.

As far as his definition backing your position goes, my response is "Uhhhhhh, right...."

[ScribeToo]

DCA is exactly what a lot of people are looking for but not finding in DCI. So why come to a DCI board and bemoan the fact that it isn't what you want? It's like coming to Taco Bell and complaining because they don't have any hamburgers! Go to Hardees, my friends! Get the Thickburger! I still like tacos, and that's ok! I also like an occasional burger. If the thing you want is right there, go get it.

That was completely awesome.

Stef

[audiodb]

I guess what I don't understand, and don't mean any disrespect by, is the product that most of the "old timers" for lack of a better term, describe is readily available. DCA is exactly what a lot of people are looking for but not finding in DCI. So why come to a DCI board and bemoan the fact that it isn't what you want? It's like coming to Taco Bell and complaining because they don't have any hamburgers! Go to Hardees, my friends! Get the Thickburger! I still like tacos, and that's ok! I also like an occasional burger. If the thing you want is right there, go get it.

Your analogy would be valid if Taco Bell had the best hamburgers around for a couple of decades, but then removed them from the menu.

[ScribeToo]

no, his analogy is spot on.

It's not about what's "best" -- you know as well as I do that what's "best" is purely subjective depending on who you're talking to. I know any number of people who did and still think that DCA corps are "the best." Likewise with DCI. That argument never gets won.

it's about going where you know you can get what you want. some people prefer mexican fast food - they know they can get it at Taco Bell. some peole prefer american fast food - they know they can get it at Hardees. some like both and know you don't go to Taco Bell when you want hamburgers.

Edited August 29, 2007 by ScribeToo

[Dale Bari]

Your analogy would be valid if Taco Bell had the best hamburgers around for a couple of decades, but then removed them from the menu.

No, it would be a more valid analogy if you said that Taco Bell changed the all-beef hamburgers to veggie-burgers, but still called them "hamburgers". Maybe it would look the same and taste pretty close to the same, but it wouldn't satisfy your hunger the same way as before. So, then you look around for a new place to go to satisfy that hunger. Hopefully, you find it.

But you will still remember how great the all-beef burgers tasted there, and when you reminisce about it, saying, "Remember when Taco Bell served those great hamburgers? That was the best meal ever!", other people will criticize you bringing that up.

They will tell you, "But those veggie-burgers are all the rage now, that beef stuff is passe. Taco Bell needed to update their menu to get new customers. You old customers were weighing them down. Besides, that beef is too fattening and unhealthy for you. You have to let the past go. Change is good for you, whether you wanted it or not. Don't be oppressing us with your worshipping a by-gone era that will never come around again."

(of course, the problem here is a place named "Taco Bell" would probably never serve hamburgers that anyone would care about, much like you would never go to Long John Silver's for their chili.)

[Dale Bari]

no, his analogy is spot on.

It's not about what's "best" -- you know as well as I do that what's "best" is purely subjective depending on who you're talking to. I know any number of people who did and still think that DCA corps are "the best." Likewise with DCI. That argument never gets won.

it's about going where you know you can get what you want. some people prefer mexican fast food - they know they can get it at Taco Bell. some peole prefer american fast food - they know they can get it at Hardees. some like both and know you don't go to Taco Bell when you want hamburgers.

Steph, your analogy is the one that's all wet.

You would be right if DCA and DCI were fighting over the same customers, and DCA won. But, they weren't competing. The OP, and all of the following posts, dealt with whether DCI had changed enough to cause older fans to lose interest. (DCA has been offered up as a likely alternative for those fans, but it may not suffice.) We're not talking about what someone likes from among different cuisines and chooses their favorite restaurant based upon their favorite type of food.

We're talking about a old-favorite restaurant making changes to their menu (in an effort to attract new business) that is starting to turn off long-time customers. Can these customers adjust to the changes, or do they find somewhere else to go? How much change is too much? What was the last straw, if at all? (Some old customers do like the new menu.) How much new business is really coming in? Is the restaurant really improving its bottom line? Was the change worth it, or was it the wrong decision?

[audiodb]

No, it would be a more valid analogy if you said that Taco Bell changed the all-beef hamburgers to veggie-burgers, but still called them "hamburgers". Maybe it would look the same and taste pretty close to the same, but it wouldn't satisfy your hunger the same way as before. So, then you look around for a new place to go to satisfy that hunger. Hopefully, you find it.

But you will still remember how great the all-beef burgers tasted there, and when you reminisce about it, saying, "Remember when Taco Bell served those great hamburgers? That was the best meal ever!", other people will criticize you bringing that up.

They will tell you, "But those veggie-burgers are all the rage now, that beef stuff is passe. Taco Bell needed to update their menu to get new customers. You old customers were weighing them down. Besides, that beef is too fattening and unhealthy for you. You have to let the past go. Change is good for you, whether you wanted it or not. Don't be oppressing us with your worshipping a by-gone era that will never come around again."

Yes, that is a far better analogy than mine.