dsb2007 Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 (edited) I love the new, good information, and I have no problem with being wrong. I just didn't care for his condescention. Point taken. My apologies. I'm kind of a spitfire. If you can get used to it, you might start to like me. :) I'm actually very easy to get along with. *extends hand for a hand shake* I just get annoyed when people try and make a statement as "fact" without researching the background behind the information. In regards to this subject, a little due dilligance in observing Academy's model from last year (and probably still this year) would have put to rest the idea that Regional Division I/World Class is a thing of the past. Quite obviously, it's not...but I guess you get that point now. All good. And I presume there WILL be more corps entering at the regional World Class level in the future because it makes business sense and keeps more corps on the field...but in doing things the RIGHT way with BUSINESS SENSE. For more discussion on that subject, I have another thread running on it here... http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/inde...howtopic=104793 I really hope the rumors are true about Spartans and Jersey Surf's applications for "Regional Division I" (or "World Class" if it ends up being called that). Those two corps could easily make the same kind of run at finals that Academy did. Though at the same time, it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see either or both stay in Division II/Open Class either for the health of that side of the activity. They are GREAT corps! Edited September 27, 2007 by dsb2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 Point taken. My apologies. I'm kind of a spitfire. If you can get used to it, you might start to like me. :) I'm actually very easy to get along with. *extends hand for a hand shake* I just get annoyed when people try and make a statement as "fact" without researching the background behind the information. In regards to this subject, a little due dilligance in observing Academy's model from last year (and probably still this year) would have put to rest the idea that Regional Division I/World Class is a thing of the past. Quite obviously, it's not...but I guess you get that point now. All good. And I presume there WILL be more corps entering at the regional World Class level in the future because it makes business sense and keeps more corps on the field...but in doing things the RIGHT way with BUSINESS SENSE. For more discussion on that subject, I have another thread running on it here... http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/inde...howtopic=104793 I really hope the rumors are true about Spartans and Jersey Surf's applications for "Regional Division I" (or "World Class" if it ends up being called that). Those two corps could easily make the same kind of run at finals that Academy did. Though at the same time, it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see either or both stay in Division II/Open Class either for the health of that side of the activity. They are GREAT corps! I'm pretty sure Academy wasn't taken on a Regional basis. They had a reverse schedule this year, not a Regional one. Either way, it worked out for a one-year thing. Maybe it does make business sense for individual corps to be regional, but how does it make sense for DCI when they have to put on a national tour? If they're doing a national tour, why do they want regional tours in their top division? That fails to make sense. And yes, I accept your apology. You'll notice I did start my statement with "I think" and didn't present it as fact. Anyhow, no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U27athecopa Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 The is a lot of good dialogue here. I believe that the system should remain a scaffolded system with Div II/III on different sheets. This works well for WGI that there are differences in sheets and one set of criteria is "nested" within the other set as it ascends. Sure, there will be groups withing Div II/III (or the new class name) that "punch through" and, if on the same sheets could exceed a Division I Corps, but if everything is made to be the same - much of the original intent becomes lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsb2007 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I'm pretty sure Academy wasn't taken on a Regional basis. They had a reverse schedule this year, not a Regional one. Either way, it worked out for a one-year thing. Incorrect again. They were listed as "Regional Division I". This IS fact. Maybe it does make business sense for individual corps to be regional, but how does it make sense for DCI when they have to put on a national tour? If they're doing a national tour, why do they want regional tours in their top division? That fails to make sense. Actually it makes TOTAL sense. The more corps stay closer to home, the easier it is to fill all competitions with 10+ corps. They don't have to be chased down. They are already there and available. Think about it. If you want to schedule the Glassmen, you have to be strategic. If you want to schedule the Academy, you know right where they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 With the current sheets, there are different levels of achievement expected when comparing Division I and Division II/III. A 95 on division II sheets is not the same as a 95 on division I sheets. If all used division I sheets throughout the season (or "World'), one could generally expect that scores of "Open" division corps would be significantly lower, and the champion might only score in the low 70's. Early season scores or scores of corps who are really struggling or in the building process could be particularly ugly. I did like the old system when the top scoring division II/III (now open) corps were advanced to open quarterfinals, and then straight ahead against everyone. I don't see what good would come out of division II/III (open) corps being judged with world standards and scores being much lower. There would also be the inevitable situations where someone will say that certain div. II/III (open) corps are better than certain world class corps, and the only way that is real is if they beat them head to head. An alternative may be to judge "open" corps on "world" sheets only when they are competing at a mostly world class show, but on their own division sheets when competing in strictly open shows. I will be the first one to admit that I have seen cases where a lone division II corps comes out early and does a respectable job, and a world class corps is struggling with both quality and an incomplete program...it would be a cool thing if the division II (open) corps in that case has a chance to pull the upset straight up. GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 With the current sheets, there are different levels of achievement expected when comparing Division I and Division II/III. A 95 on division II sheets is not the same as a 95 on division I sheets. If all used division I sheets throughout the season (or "World'), one could generally expect that scores of "Open" division corps would be significantly lower, and the champion might only score in the low 70's. Early season scores or scores of corps who are really struggling or in the building process could be particularly ugly. I did like the old system when the top scoring division II/III (now open) corps were advanced to open quarterfinals, and then straight ahead against everyone. I don't see what good would come out of division II/III (open) corps being judged with world standards and scores being much lower. There would also be the inevitable situations where someone will say that certain div. II/III (open) corps are better than certain world class corps, and the only way that is real is if they beat them head to head. An alternative may be to judge "open" corps on "world" sheets only when they are competing at a mostly world class show, but on their own division sheets when competing in strictly open shows. I will be the first one to admit that I have seen cases where a lone division II corps comes out early and does a respectable job, and a world class corps is struggling with both quality and an incomplete program...it would be a cool thing if the division II (open) corps in that case has a chance to pull the upset straight up.GB I agree with the concept of letting the Open class corps compete directly against the World class corps at Quarters (or whenever, really). But as for the sheets -- so the top World guys score 95 and the top Open guys score 75? So what? Who says that the winner must score in the 90's? It's just a number. We could make it so the top corps scores 400 if we want. Or 10. It's the comparative scale and improvement over time that is important. And if we want these corps to compete against each other as you say, then I say score them on the same sheets and the same scale all year. If 75 or 80 is your class' normal top, then you will shoot for 80 and be happy improving throughout the year from a 55 to a 75 (for example). If the response is that the kids will feel bad only getting a 75 when the "big boys" got a 95, well I don't really know what to say to that. If this activity cannot teach these kids not to wrap their whole self-esteem into an arbitrary number and instead to concentrate and take pride in the improvement, then I'm not sure we can teach them anything at all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 But as for the sheets -- so the top World guys score 95 and the top Open guys score 75? So what? Who says that the winner must score in the 90's? It's just a number. We could make it so the top corps scores 400 if we want. Or 10. It's the comparative scale and improvement over time that is important. And if we want these corps to compete against each other as you say, then I say score them on the same sheets and the same scale all year. If 75 or 80 is your class' normal top, then you will shoot for 80 and be happy improving throughout the year from a 55 to a 75 (for example). If the response is that the kids will feel bad only getting a 75 when the "big boys" got a 95, well I don't really know what to say to that. If this activity cannot teach these kids not to wrap their whole self-esteem into an arbitrary number and instead to concentrate and take pride in the improvement, then I'm not sure we can teach them anything at all.... What about the lower scoring corps? For example, last year Les Stentors opened with a 39.5. If you put them on World sheets using the same -20 math that you did in the previous post, that puts them at a 19.5. To get a 19.5 you need caption scores of about 3.9 in all captions. Do the sheets even have criteria for scoring that low? I think the point I'm trying to make here is that there are different sets for sheets for a reason. Open sheets are suited for all Open corps and World sheets are suited for World corps. Sure, you could throw Spartans and Surf on World sheets and it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but when you take a look at the rest of the division it doesn't seem like such a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 What about the lower scoring corps? For example, last year Les Stentors opened with a 39.5. If you put them on World sheets using the same -20 math that you did in the previous post, that puts them at a 19.5. To get a 19.5 you need caption scores of about 3.9 in all captions. Do the sheets even have criteria for scoring that low? I think the point I'm trying to make here is that there are different sets for sheets for a reason. Open sheets are suited for all Open corps and World sheets are suited for World corps. Sure, you could throw Spartans and Surf on World sheets and it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but when you take a look at the rest of the division it doesn't seem like such a good idea. And here lies one of the biggest problems with using different sheets. You cannot compare the score of a division II/III open class corps to one of a division I world class corps. Sure, we can say -15, -20... but that is not accurate across the entire scoring grid. As said above, a number is a number, and these corps do not need their criteria pampered just to receive a larger score... my opinion. As a former division II & III performer, I would have much rather seen a score that I could compare to the division I folks with instead of trying add or subtract on an inaccurate convertion factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 You'd rather see Open corps getting single digit caption scores? And it's not as if being on the same sheets will give open corps an idea of where they are vs. world corps, because then everyone would be saying "scores don't matter if they're not at the same show". The comparisons would be deemed just as inaccurate as they are now. Additionally, I don't understand why comparison to world corps is so important in the first place...why not just have one division at that point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAFL Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 This poll question is meant to be strictly about "the sheets". Do you feel that it is better to judge from the same scoring sheets as current World Division corps, or should the Open Division have sheets tailored to their achievement levels. The divisions are engaged in the same activity, yes? And they are competing under the auspices of the same organization, yes? Then there is no compelling reason to use different sheets for scoring. The two divisions draw from the same knowledge base and have all the skills necessary available to them. TAFL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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