would random order of performance change scores?

[Blueemrld8]

FWIW, it seemed to be better for the corps back in the day when on any given day or night corps 'A' could possibly catch or beat corps 'B' who had beaten them the previous week. It just seems that, today, it's not a 'competition' between the corps so much as it is a summerlong project to increase the scores and points awarded but keep the order of finish intact. The unfortunate thing is that after just 2 weeks into the season, the 'slots' seem to have been set and the rest of the corps can just go through the motions, but they aren't going to get the opportunity to crack the next highest place. It just seems that the only reason to go to quarters, semis or finals is to see a well performed show by all the corps and not get upset about the placings, since they were set weeks beforehand. Nothing is random anymore. JMHO.

You know, I agree with you here... I mean, the biggest upset was Madison Scouts during Quarters! But yeah, it would be more exciting to actually wonder where a Corp. would place. ( and i'm not meaning within one placement of where they were, even though that gets harder and harder to move out of as the season progresses.)

[sburstall]

The lower tiered corps have very similar practice time compared to the corps they are in immediate competition with. Fact of the matter is, Pioneer is not really in competition with BD. Realistically they are in competition with the corps 1 or 2 placements in either direction, in which case they receive comparable rehearsal time to their competitors.

Also, practing smart is all well in good, but it isn't inversely proportional to rehearsal time.

If the corps rehearses smart for 2 hours they will not improve as much as if they practiced smart for 4 hours. People talk like hard work isn't necessary if you practice smart, I say that's BS. A corps that works smart AND hard will improve more than a corps that works smart and not hard.

That's a given. I implied that working smart also includes working hard.

I was just referring to the lack of parity of within the drum corps community. DCI may not be able to control the finances and members, but they can make it so each corps has to deal with the same amount of rehersal time. Those who can effectively use what is given to them should be allowed to win.

edit: removed efficiently because that made no sense.

Edited October 5, 2007 by sburstall

[Liam]

DCI may not be able to control the finances and members, but they can make it so each corps has to deal with the same amount of rehersal time. Those who can efficiently use what is given to them should be allowed to win.

This is a really good statement -- it wouldn't be that hard for DCI to arrange the show schedules ahead of time so that throughout the season each corps performs early the same number of times, in the middle the same number of times, and late the same number of times. Regionals and Finals maybe are earned spots, but the rest of the shows can certainly be evened out a bit for fairness' sake.

[drumcat]

The one thing that bothers me about this thread is that it's all based on one flawed assumption. The assumption that judges are not making the right calls now.

Would anyone care to suggest which calls were missed because of a lack of randomocity? In addition, would anyone care to suggest why those corps with a bad/early draw won't be hurt equally as other corps are helped? Would you like to be the one to tell the 12th-place corps on semis night that they're on first? If you believe that the judges are so inept that they'll get it wrong because of step-off time, then why is it also fair that some corps will get randomized away from a placement?

Say said corps misses finals, but the 13 seed advances in 12th because they were on later. How has this benefited anyone fairly? You're suggesting that the greenshirts are influenced by order, and even if that is true, why is it suggested that a corps who might win if placed back to back is better off performing hours earlier, and then penalized for inept numbers management?

First, it doesn't make it better. Second, I don't buy that the judges are so influenced by whether the sun is up or down. Third, the same thing applies when you're talking about parity, which I'm all for -- the examples you've used to prop up this point don't account for the harm it would do. It would do more harm because every placement of help also adds a placement of hurt, and along with a scattered show that fans generally will find schizophrenic, you also show a public distrust of your own judging.

I wouldn't mind seeing the odds and evens switch on a given night when everyone is there, thus reversing a head-to-head so that the judges can reduce any influence they may have felt because of order, but complete randomness is unhelpful, can produce scattershot results and fewer changes. If anything the psychology on a fully random show is to re-order it as you know it. I'm all for semis going off as 9-10-8-7-5-6-3-4-1-2, but I'm not for a straw draw.

[dbc03]

That's a given. I implied that working smart also includes working hard.

I was just referring to the lack of parity of within the drum corps community. DCI may not be able to control the finances and members, but they can make it so each corps has to deal with the same amount of rehersal time. Those who can effectively use what is given to them should be allowed to win.

edit: removed efficiently because that made no sense.

But corps already deal with the same amount of rehearsal time between the corps they are in immediate competition with.

How bad would it suck for a 13th place corps to be quickly closing in on the 12th place corps, but then a week before finals they start getting bad draws and suddenly the 12th place corps gets a couple more hours a day of rehearsal time than the 13th place corps and pulls away because of it?

Wouldn't it be much more fair to give them relatively equal rehearsal time so that the luck of the draw is not deciding placements?

[Liam]

drumcat,

You make some good points -- I mean, either we trust the judges or we don't. And if we don't ... well .... then the whole discussion is kinda moot, isn't it :)

I do like the idea of randominzing within small groups -- or switching off in some way as you describe -- just to mix it up a bit for the fans. Sometimes seeing a show before or after a show in a way you're not used to provides a little different perspective. For us, the fans, I mean, not necessarily the judges.

Also, everyone keeps passing over this point I made -- but I think that DURING THE SEASON (not Regionals or Finals week) the shows could be pre-arranged (NOT random) to spread the early, middle, and late corps around so everyone has early days, late days, etc and it is fair for everyone. This will also ensure that druing the season, the judges see all the shows in different order so that there is no (or should I say, less) criticism of slotting and the placements at regionals and quarters will seem more earned.

Just some stuff to think about -- good discussion so far!!!!

[t-mac]

I will say that I have been to several shows where the hosting corps chose to go on last (they weren't comparable yet, talent or design wise) and their show came of very anti-climactic. I think if you mix it up through the year some of the "build-up" that happens through the evening would be lost. I do, however, like the idea of doing random draw within small groups at regionals and finals. It just makes it more interesting.

[drumcat]

Also, everyone keeps passing over this point I made -- but I think that DURING THE SEASON (not Regionals or Finals week) the shows could be pre-arranged (NOT random) to spread the early, middle, and late corps around so everyone has early days, late days, etc and it is fair for everyone. This will also ensure that druing the season, the judges see all the shows in different order so that there is no (or should I say, less) criticism of slotting and the placements at regionals and quarters will seem more earned.

And while you have a great point, most show sponsors at local, mid-week shows don't want their "meal-ticket" corps to be on first. Some of the ordering is done in advance, and not all of the orders are strictly by prior placement. That said, I think a small amount of randomizing can be introduced, though if you look closely, there is some of that going on. It could probably use a touch more, especially in June.

[Liam]

And while you have a great point, most show sponsors at local, mid-week shows don't want their "meal-ticket" corps to be on first. Some of the ordering is done in advance, and not all of the orders are strictly by prior placement. That said, I think a small amount of randomizing can be introduced, though if you look closely, there is some of that going on. It could probably use a touch more, especially in June.

I understand the reluctance -- and the anti-climactic nature of the evening that could be a result. But I think a little bit of forethought could alleviate these concerns.

Show sponsore want their "meal-ticket" corps to go last -- I think this can be addressed by making sure that there are top corps going on early and late at each show. BD might go on early at one show while PR goes last. Next show they switch so that each show still has a "big boy" late. Honestly, I think this will actually HELP the sponsors because more folks will make sure to get to shows earlier which means more concessions and more souvies for the corps.

Again, I'm not talking about random here, but a well-thought out rotation that still makes the shows and tours flow well.

After all, I lot of what I read on the boards is about what can we do to help the lower World class corps and the Open class corps -- no one sees them because they perform earlier, no one goes to Open class finals, less practice time, etc. etc. This, to me, is a relatively easy way to spread the love and attention and, I believe, actually HELP the show sponsors at the same time (whether they realize it or not).

Just a thought ....:)

[drumcat]

I understand the reluctance -- and the anti-climactic nature of the evening that could be a result. But I think a little bit of forethought could alleviate these concerns.

Show sponsore want their "meal-ticket" corps to go last -- I think this can be addressed by making sure that there are top corps going on early and late at each show. BD might go on early at one show while PR goes last. Next show they switch so that each show still has a "big boy" late. Honestly, I think this will actually HELP the sponsors because more folks will make sure to get to shows earlier which means more concessions and more souvies for the corps.

Again, I'm not talking about random here, but a well-thought out rotation that still makes the shows and tours flow well.

After all, I lot of what I read on the boards is about what can we do to help the lower World class corps and the Open class corps -- no one sees them because they perform earlier, no one goes to Open class finals, less practice time, etc. etc. This, to me, is a relatively easy way to spread the love and attention and, I believe, actually HELP the show sponsors at the same time (whether they realize it or not).

Just a thought .... :)

And for this I fully agree. And like I said, some of this happens now, but probably a little more would help.