would random order of performance change scores?

[Peel Paint]

The scores would be somewhat less predictable.

The scores would also be less accurate in a 17+ corps show. If you have two corps that might score within a quarter point apart in a caption, and one plays at 4:30 and the other at 9:30, there's no good way most judges can decide which one should be higher. The best the judge can do is say to himself, they're close, as to which one was better, I'm going to pick X because of Y but if I could have seen them back-to-back, I might choose differently.

Sometimes two closely ranked corps in a caption do perform an hour or two apart, so judges have to grapple with this anyway. But it's very hard when two corps are very close in a caption to not see them perform closely in time to one another, especially if several corps that were a lot better or a lot weaker in the caption performed between the two corps. It colors the judgment.

[friceox]

I think the big problem we're missing here, is if they randomly selected performances, it would totally screw with corps daily schedules.

example...the last performing corps can rehearse much later into the day, while the first performing corps have to have a shorter rehearsal day.

You'd be messing with everyone's rehearsal schedule, and it would throw the kids way out of whack.

[sburstall]

I think the big problem we're missing here, is if they randomly selected performances, it would totally screw with corps daily schedules.

example...the last performing corps can rehearse much later into the day, while the first performing corps have to have a shorter rehearsal day.

You'd be messing with everyone's rehearsal schedule, and it would throw the kids way out of whack.

Not really. If all the corps showed up at the the performance site at same time and the performance schedule was told there then there would be no problems.

[Scout]

It sure made a difference for Madison in 1988.......

You do remember that Blue Devils went on immediately after Scouts in prelims, don't you?

And that night, Scouts beat BD by a larger margin than finals.

[dbc03]

Not really. If all the corps showed up at the the performance site at same time and the performance schedule was told there then there would be no problems.

So just give everyone less rehearsal time so that the quality at the bottom stays the same and the quality at the top drops.

No thank you <**>

[Suviduvi]

Do you mean during Finals week? Or during the "regular season"?

it could be finals, or all the time

[Suviduvi]

While I agree with you IN THEORY, I think that in practice it would add a lot of unneeded stress to the preformers.

I do think that the "going in groups" idea fixes a bit of this. However, what would u feel if you were going to preform an 11 minute piece of music... "sometime during the night?" That makes so many little things more important, like arriving on time or even the night before and everyone being ready to go at the begining of the WHOLE show.

I think It would cause needless panic.

Edit: till preformers get used to it, scores might dip a bit..placement would not.

The lottery of scheudule would be determiined either after the last performance or first thing in the morning, corps would know what time they were set to perform, just like they know now.

[t-mac]

I think that the real suggestion here is that random draw performance order (within smaller groups like groups of four) would be implemented during finals week only. I really don't think that slotting has near as much effect outside of large regional type show and finals week. You can pretty much tell where groups are going to place at regular 7-10 corps show.

[sburstall]

So just give everyone less rehearsal time so that the quality at the bottom stays the same and the quality at the top drops.

No thank you <**>

It's already happening. The lower tiered corps are penalized by performing first because they have less practice time. Even if one can't bring the same kind of parity that the pro-teams have, why not at least do it with the corps having the same amount of practice time? And who's to say the quality will drop? Remember, it's about practicing smarter, not longer or harder. BTW, the upper tiered corps would lose an hour or so?. You make it would like corps will lose half a day of practice.

[SkyRyder_FMM]

The scores would be somewhat less predictable.

The scores would also be less accurate in a 17+ corps show. If you have two corps that might score within a quarter point apart in a caption, and one plays at 4:30 and the other at 9:30, there's no good way most judges can decide which one should be higher. The best the judge can do is say to himself, they're close, as to which one was better, I'm going to pick X because of Y but if I could have seen them back-to-back, I might choose differently.

Sometimes two closely ranked corps in a caption do perform an hour or two apart, so judges have to grapple with this anyway. But it's very hard when two corps are very close in a caption to not see them perform closely in time to one another, especially if several corps that were a lot better or a lot weaker in the caption performed between the two corps. It colors the judgment.

The same can be said when performance order is based on previous placement. Like it or not, there is a natural bias that results, as the corps are performing in ever increasing quality. Though when they are close, the actual performance quality is not always taken into account, but rather a natural progression seems to emerge - especially when you have a panel of lesser experienced judges.

I can't tell you the number of times I've seen final placements based on performance order, rather than actual performance. You can see two or three corps that are neck in neck, and based on the performance that night, placements should have shifted, but they didn't. The placement fell right in line with performance order.

As you note, the issue of performing hours apart exists today when you have corps that have captions that are significantly stronger or weaker than the overall placement of the corps.

Personally, I loved the situation from 1988 - top 12 corps in semi-finals were not told their score or placement - just that they made finals. Performance order for Finals was broken into two groups - the top 5 that would be broadcast on TV live, and the remaining 7. All corps drew cards to determine their performance order in their groups. Looking back at the recaps and reflecting on the corps actual performances, I personally can't complain about a single caption placement or final score. I thought it was extremely fair. The judges had to judge the performance on the field.