Pioneer 2008 show announcement

[Jimbalaya]

Well said Donny. It would appear that the critic is unfamiliar with Larry's unusual approach to the 'celtic' genre. What he did with Reilly in late '90's thru 2003 was amazing. From the 'Irish Eyes' thru 'Danny Boy', 'Celtic Symphony, 'The Garry Owen' and 'Irish Washerwoman'........his own plaintive solo sop opener, 'Gaelic Girl', set the mood for a tour de force that in no way resembled the old way of presenting these pieces.

I might add that 'celtic' is a broad term that can include musical styles that touch not only Ole Erin, but Normandie and other regions of france, the low countries, Norway, Sweden and the Danes and other areas as well in addition to British and Germanic cultures. To present a 'Celtic' programme you could use a very broad brush indeed.

My best wishes to you, Roman the rest of the staff and the kids........SLAINTE!!!!!

J

Ok I will play along.

So if we stretch the definition of the word "Celtic", is it really so bad for you to be so critical of it. It keeps Roman happy, we upgrade the literature from Irish Eyes are Smilin, Garry Owen and Irish Washerwoman to college level wind band literature, and give the students a learning experience of music that is mainstream, that doesnt seem like such a bad thing to me.

I personally know the organization pretty well and also know what would be allowed (and what wouldn't) when music was being presented. I believe that this is actually a major step up, and one that will encourage growth in performance and membership numbers. If there is something wrong with that, I dont understand it . It may not the MAJOR step up that it could have been, but it is a significant one. The staff had some other really great ideas that may have been ahead of where Pioneer really is in the talent and ability pool. A decicion had to be made and I dont think that it came out so badly at all.

As far as being creative with this literature, I remember a corps from Revere, Massachusetts that made a steady diet of this literature and almost (and possibly should have) won DCI a few times, and were a HUGE crowd favorite. I always though they were a Celtic themed corps...Star of Indiana seemed to do very well with this same type of programming as well, as did Carolina Crown. Even if your argument turns to..."well that was years ago"...the literature will stand the test of time, believe me. If a top 6 corps decided to do it, then I am sure it would be accepted as being "state of the art". Because it is Pioneer, it isnt good literature?

The visual design package is hopefully going to be another big difference in the programming. That is not a slam on the people that tried to salvage what they could from what was handed to them last year either, for the record. They really did the best they could, and I for one very much appreciated it. They had to play with a stacked deck of cards, and worked magic with what they could salvage.

We know that Pioneer isnt going to win DCI this year. We just want to give the kids something that they will learn from, be (at least) slightly more competitve, and enjoy the friendships that come with being in drum corps. It is at least a step up in design, and more than one step at a time could really be disastrous for a group at this level. Hopefully we can continue the growth in programming over the next few years to see this corps...that works as hard as any other corps... get some recognition. Slow growth is still growth. Somethimes taking smaller steps can get better results. Programming a top 6 show that the kids cannot achieve probably wouldnt be a great idea for this corps. Just sayin'.

Donny

[BeinGreen]

I think Celtic Symphony was originally penned for drum corps by Bobby Adair and then later edited by Larry Kershner in subsequent years with Reilly. If I am correct in that then it is interesting that a DCI corps is playing Adair inspired charts even today.

The whole Celtic/Irish idiom gets a bum rap from media portrayals of fightin' drinkin' Irish guys singing The Wild Rover as if that is the depth of the culture and the music. Before the Roman Empire Ireland had a written language, culture and religion all its own. If you get past the Irish Washerwoman and Irish Eyes there is plenty of substance to utilize but corps arent doing it much. The Celtic Woman shows touch on it but do stay familiar and popular largely appealing to their audience with great production on stage.

Anuna however goes beyond that and performs some intense choral arrangements with the same awesome staging and production. Its all very successful right now but no corps is using it. http://www.anuna.ie/sounds.htm The Rising of the Sun and Christus Resurgens are awesome.

Anuna even posts their sheet music online.

http://www.anuna.ie/sheetmusic_alphabetical.php

Some of this (but not all) is departed from the Irish Catholic roots of The Imperials of St. Patrick which is who Pioneer really is. Heck, Anuna even marches in to Media Vita. How about something really dark like some chant?

I wish some corps would do an arrangement of Siul a Run or maybe My Lagan Love which the Corrs do a gorgeous version of. Lovely stuff nobody has ever touched. Wish I could write. Hate to hear myself say it, but if somebody has to sing on a mic at a corps show let it be some girl with a beautiful voice singing something as gorgeous from the Irish tradition. IMO that would be far better than perhaps all of the voice used in DCI to date.

Edited November 13, 2007 by BeinGreen

[DutchCousin]

When will Pioneer learn?

Sorry for not being clear, Donny. Let me reword it for you:

When will Pioneer's design team learn to create a somewhat artistic and competitive show?

It's kind of funny how most of your repertoire isn't Irish, too.

-OJ

"The music of Gustav Von Holst, Percy Grainger, and Sir William Walton will be a part of the musical and visual journey that reflects on Celtic culture and its music."

Are the English folk songs that inspired the works of Grainger and Holst really of Celtic tradition? Probably not...And it's safe to say that William Walton was influenced more by other European composers and American music than by Irish/Celtic music.

Will this be portrayed as clouded, incoherent reflections?

This is almost as good as the people pushing for The Cavaliers to play Variations on a Korean Folk Song in their Samurai production.

Conduct not becoming an officer, Jenny <**>

[KeithHall]

"The music of Gustav Von Holst, Percy Grainger, and Sir William Walton will be a part of the musical and visual journey that reflects on Celtic culture and its music."

Are the English folk songs that inspired the works of Grainger and Holst really of Celtic tradition? Probably not...And it's safe to say that William Walton was influenced more by other European composers and American music than by Irish/Celtic music.

Will this be portrayed as clouded, incoherent reflections?

What corps do you teach?

[Jimbalaya]

Ahhhhhhhh darlin.....let us not forget Tommy Makem and the Clancy Brothers

I think Celtic Symphony was originally penned for drum corps by Bobby Adair and then later edited by Larry Kershner in subsequent years with Reilly. If I am correct in that then it is interesting that a DCI corps is playing Adair inspired charts even today.

The whole Celtic/Irish idiom gets a bum rap from media portrayals of fightin' drinkin' Irish guys singing The Wild Rover as if that is the depth of the culture and the music. Before the Roman Empire Ireland had a written language, culture and religion all its own. If you get past the Irish Washerwoman and Irish Eyes there is plenty of substance to utilize but corps arent doing it much. The Celtic Woman shows touch on it but do stay familiar and popular largely appealing to their audience with great production on stage.

Anuna however goes beyond that and performs some intense choral arrangements with the same awesome staging and production. Its all very successful right now but no corps is using it. http://www.anuna.ie/sounds.htm The Rising of the Sun and Christus Resurgens are awesome.

Anuna even posts their sheet music online.

http://www.anuna.ie/sheetmusic_alphabetical.php

Some of this (but not all) is departed from the Irish Catholic roots of The Imperials of St. Patrick which is who Pioneer really is. Heck, Anuna even marches in to Media Vita. How about something really dark like some chant?

I wish some corps would do an arrangement of Siul a Run or maybe My Lagan Love which the Corrs do a gorgeous version of. Lovely stuff nobody has ever touched. Wish I could write. Hate to hear myself say it, but if somebody has to sing on a mic at a corps show let it be some girl with a beautiful voice singing something as gorgeous from the Irish tradition. IMO that would be far better than perhaps all of the voice used in DCI to date.

[A27Lancer]

Having been to Ireland, I can tell you that unless you go to a tourist trap, the music you will hear is NOT Danny Boy, When Irish Eyes Are Smiling, or Whiskey in the Jar. Irish music can be very complex and beautiful.

I commend Pioneer's choices. Would love to hear some Clannad or Enya from a drum corps. There are some awesome harmonies in Celtic music.

[Officer_Jenny]

Ok....

So you obviously know what a drum corps needs to be competitive, so why don't you apply for a position with a corps.

Besides that, have you heard the show, do you know your facts, or are you one of these people that never marched but still finds their way into these threads to spout off their useless banter because you have a right to your opinion.

Have you studied the music that they're playing, are you a musicologist, because if you are, you would know your comments about the source material are loosely based on minimal studies of textbooks that are not historically accurate, and that Pioneer IS in fact using source material that IS ROOTED in Celtic traditions.

Furthermore, your comments about the Cavaliers...well if people are calling for them to play Variations it WOULD be a good idea for several reasons. 1-if it is a samurai show, then using a piece such a Variations fits. 2-this piece has been used by the Cavaliers so it would be an homage to their past/traditions-oh no, not that!!! 3. If it fits the overall show, it should be done.

Source material listings do not mean a show will be good or bad. So for all of you out there with your righteous opinions that you are entitled to should either take a back seat and wait until things unfold, OR join a staff where your opinion will be taken and used. Although, some of you should probably graduate HS or age out before you are a staff member, unless you can find a corps that will hire you, in which case, right on!

I do indeed know what a corps needs to do in order to be competitive. As for my involvement in the marching arts...if you only knew. Nevertheless, I would be more concerned about criticizing Pioneer for their ability to field a competitive corps than trying to make jabs at me or my credentials. Last place or second-to-last place for several years in a row speaks for itself.

I have not studied Pioneer's arrangements of these works, but I am familiar with them all. I am especially familiar with Lincolnshire Posy and the Holst Suite in Eb. Although the inspiration of these two works shares some similarities to Celtic music, especially to the untrained/uninformed ear, it is not classified as Celtic music. Therefore, if you're doing a show about Celtic tradition, why would you program works that are 20th century impressions of English folk music? The show design is inherently flawed. It's the little 5th grader in general music class that says, "That sounds like Irish music!!"

Speaking of that little 5th grader, he or she might easily mistake Korean music with Japanese music too, therefore having no qualms about KOREAN-inspired music being in a show about JAPANESE culture.

You're right, source material is not an automatic indicator of success. However, program announcements which contain obvious flaws have a lot to do with how seriously someone takes the corps. Here's to Pioneer improving!

-OJ

[dukecornwell]

Good luck Joe. I know that you can help Pioneer achieve a very good position going into Championships. The ladder is all yours. Your friends will be pulling for you, DA, and we have all the confidence in you that you are the Brass professional for the job.

[cowtown]

I would be more concerned about criticizing Pioneer for their ability to field a competitive corps than trying to make jabs at me or my credentials.

I find that they do field a competitive corps, maybe they just don’t share your same philosophy, and good for them.

Therefore, if you're doing a show about Celtic tradition, why would you program works that are 20th century impressions of English folk music?

Well, it’s also clear that you don’t know much about the term Celtic , you now have nothing left to stand on

And I do question your drum corps skills if your knowledge of basic history and the Pioneers is so lacking

but thanks for showing us what you don't know

Simon James, formerly of the British Museum, in his book The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention? makes the point that the Romans never used the term "Celtic" (or, rather, a cognate in Latin) in reference to the peoples of Britain and Ireland, and points out that the modern term "Celt" was coined as a useful umbrella term in the early 18th century to distinguish the non-English inhabitants of the archipelago when England united with Scotland in 1707 to create the Kingdom of Great Britain and the later union of Great Britain and Ireland as the United Kingdom in 1800. Nationalists in Scotland, Ireland and Wales looked for a way to differentiate themselves from England and assert their right to independence. James then argues that, despite the obvious linguistic connections, archeology does not suggest a united Celtic culture and that the term is misleading, no more (or less) meaningful than "Western".

link to source

I’ll throw out a big woo-hoo, I can’t wait to hear that drum corps classic back on the field – best of luck Pioneer

edit to fix and adjust quotes

Edited November 13, 2007 by cowtown

[Officer_Jenny]

I find that they do field a competitive corps, maybe they just don’t share your same philosophy, and good for them.

Well, it’s also clear that you don’t know much about the term Celtic , you now have nothing left to stand on

And I do question your drum corps skills if your knowledge of basic history and the Pioneers is so lacking

but thanks for showing us what you don't know

link to source

I’ll throw out a big woo-hoo, I can’t wait to hear that drum corps classic back on the field – best of luck Pioneer

edit to fix and adjust quotes

haha quoting wikipedia.

How about this, cowtown, find me some solid evidence that links the folk songs that inspired lincolnshire posy and the music of Holst to Celtic culture and I'll be convinced.

Listen, Donny himself admitted they stretched the definition of Celtic.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Officer_Jenny