HoltonH178 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 (edited) Maybe I don't get your point. Drum corps is better because they tour, they do physical training, and march at faster tempos? Other than those things, marching band is vastly superior? They have to allow woodwinds in because they are being denied the chance to tour, run miles and do hundreds of push ups, and then march fast tempos? To be a part of a professional-level marching ensemble, gain valuable knowledge and experience, go on a national tour, march with people aged up to 21, make ~200 (with WWs) friends, and perform in front of 300,000 people by summer's end. You don't do that in MB. EDIT: And you all know corps friends are different from MB friends. Edited November 25, 2007 by HoltonH178 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tekneek Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 (edited) To be a part of a professional-level marching ensemble, gain valuable knowledge and experience, go on a national tour, march with people aged up to 21, make ~200 (with WWs) friends, and perform in front of 300,000 people by summer's end. You don't do that in MB. Will drum corps full of 200 members really be able to march the same kind of drills and tempos they do today, regardless of instruments involved? None of these arguments are very compelling. To be honest, I don't even understand where they are coming from. I have not watched one drum corps show in person or on video, or listened to an audio recording, where I thought it would be perfect if they could just add in some woodwinds. Knowing that a woodwind player could find a corps out there that would teach them to play a horn makes it even harder for me to buy the arguments put forward. I wish somebody could come up with a pro-woodwinds position that actually made sense to me and convinced me it was actually a good idea. Edited November 25, 2007 by Tekneek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoltonH178 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Will drum corps full of 200 members really be able to march the same kind of drills and tempos they do today, regardless of instruments involved? Yes. None of these arguments are very compelling. To be honest, I don't even understand where they are coming from. I have not watched one drum corps show in person or on video, or listened to an audio recording, where I thought it would be perfect if they could just add in some woodwinds. Knowing that a woodwind player could find a corps out there that would teach them to play a horn makes it even harder for me to buy the arguments put forward. I wish somebody could come up with a pro-woodwinds position that actually made sense to me and convinced me it was actually a good idea. Then I suppose it's agree to disagree time, eh? I see it, you don't. It's okay. I'm the music ed major--I don't know if you are or aren't, but that's probably why I look at things so differently from most of DCP (apparently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Well, what I can say at this point is that I appreciate MikeD's (et al) arguments a lot more. While I certainly don't agree, and feel that the arguments he's laid out are a bad idea, at least those have been supportive of his ideas, based on his ideas. This stuff from Holton has been arrogant, self-serving crap. Mike's points are about making drum corps better, in his view. Holton's ideas (if you can call them that) are centered around him, and what he thinks would be a utopia, with no regard whatsoever for the institutions that he would be changing, and in fact exist to give him a platform to spew this stuff from. Frankly, it's sad that he seems to have no regard for the drum corps community. For someone posting here, he should be one of the more acutely aware that drum corps exists in large part because people pay to see shows. If they did not, he would have nothing to argue about because the only activity he'd be in would be marching band. The irony, of course, is that he wants drum corps to become marching band. So I would say, Holton, that if you want more marching band, stick to marching band. Go do marching band this summer. Go ahead. We'll support your decision. We won't be paying for any tickets, mind you. We'll just wish you well. Have fun joining a summer marching band... and when you find one, let us know. We'll all be curious to see it -- assuming one exists. Tell us where to buy the CD. Not that we will, but we'll look at it with curiosity. And the DVD... Have fun touring... wherever said marching band goes. In the meantime, I'll enjoy fall bands and football, and in the summer, I'll be busy with the unique brass product that is drum corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoltonH178 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Wow, I finally got a reason to block a user. Awesome. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Fantastic. A "neener neener" response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscout96 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 To be a part of a professional-level marching ensemble, gain valuable knowledge and experience, go on a national tour, march with people aged up to 21, make ~200 (with WWs) friends, and perform in front of 300,000 people by summer's end. You don't do that in MB.EDIT: And you all know corps friends are different from MB friends. Can you guarantee those 300,000 people will be there to see your band? Will they do it year after year, not just for a year or two because of the novelty of it? If not, it won't last long. Many of those 300,000 fans (not parents, not friends, but FANS) buy tickets to hear a big brassline with a sound undiluted by woodwinds or strings or synthesizers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoltonH178 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 (edited) Can you guarantee those 300,000 people will be there to see your band? Will they do it year after year, not just for a year or two because of the novelty of it? If not, it won't last long. Many of those 300,000 fans (not parents, not friends, but FANS) buy tickets to hear a big brassline with a sound undiluted by woodwinds or strings or synthesizers. I think this is an interesting argument, considering the argument that you wouldn't be able to hear woodwinds on the field is also used regularly by anti-WW supporters (although not necessarily used by you, I can't speak to that). I think everyone would be surprised how little it really changes things from a performance perspective. We don't see bands that perform or have been trained like corps do. As someone who has played in and instructed some of the best marching ensembles in the country, drum corps or marching band, and experienced bands as close to corps style as they come, the distinction between the sounds is primarily one of sonority, and a propensity for intricacy that is not afforded by our current instrumentation...which I consider to be a benefit, personally, but that's a matter of personal taste. I also don't see how anyone would be less inclined to march after 1 year than they are now, considering the personal implications of going on tour with a corps family are the same. Edited November 25, 2007 by HoltonH178 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscout96 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 I think this is an interesting argument, considering the argument that you wouldn't be able to hear woodwinds on the field is also used regularly by anti-WW supporters (although not necessarily used by you, I can't speak to that). And I never used that argument. I'm sure that if some group decided to use them, they'd make sure they were audible (either with mics or with numbers). I think everyone would be surprised how little it really changes things from a performance perspective. We don't see bands that perform or have been trained like corps do. As someone who has played in and instructed some of the best marching ensembles in the country, drum corps or marching band, and experienced bands as close to corps style as they come, the distinction between the sounds is primarily one of sonority, and a propensity for intricacy that is not afforded by our current instrumentation...which I consider to be a benefit, personally, but that's a matter of personal taste.I also don't see how anyone would be less inclined to march after 1 year than they are now, considering the personal implications of going on tour with a corps family are the same. How about how drastically things would change from an AUDIENCE perspective? Many would say and have said how drastically things changed with the addition of amps. Of course woodwinds will change things. From a performer's perspective, maybe not as much, but you CANNOT ignore the audience!! You have been giving lots of arguments for woodwinds from the performer's point of view, and it seems like you don't care too much about the audience's point of view. And it doesn't matter what bands or corps you marched with or taught or what school you go to or what professors you study with or who your daddy is, you have to look at things from all sides. Well, you do say that the distinction between the sounds is primarily one of sonority. But don't you see? That's THE difference maker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoltonH178 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 (edited) And I never used that argument. I'm sure that if some group decided to use them, they'd make sure they were audible (either with mics or with numbers).How about how drastically things would change from an AUDIENCE perspective? Many would say and have said how drastically things changed with the addition of amps. Of course woodwinds will change things. From a performer's perspective, maybe not as much, but you CANNOT ignore the audience!! You have been giving lots of arguments for woodwinds from the performer's point of view, and it seems like you don't care too much about the audience's point of view. And it doesn't matter what bands or corps you marched with or taught or what school you go to or what professors you study with or who your daddy is, you have to look at things from all sides. Well, you do say that the distinction between the sounds is primarily one of sonority. But don't you see? That's THE difference maker! Woodwinds would be audible primarily during features, solos, and during softer moments of the performance. Impact points...not so much. It wouldn't be practical to have them mic'd for that purpose from a staging/design standpoint, and this is important because I feel like this is primarily what we're talking about when we're talking about the value of the brass sound. The clarinet shoots straigh t down into the ground, the flute right out the side of the horn, and the saxophone practically sounds like a brass instrument anywho. I was criticized a couple of posts ago for wanting drum corps to be a certain way only for my own purposes, but I truly do believe that the drum corps activity would reach a wider audience more successfully with these changes. And who's to say that the audience members, largely made up of those who know of the benefits of instrumental music education, also don't have an obligation to look at things from all sides? We are all in this boat together, and that's definitely a Scott Stewart angle. I've looked at it from all sides, believe me, it's not that I'm unaware that people are resistant to this change, but that I'd hope they'd be willing to compromise the same way so many others have for their marching experience for years. There's this concept that's very successful today in music education called "vertical alignment." When everyone is on the same docket at all levels in an educational program, all of them flourish and become more successful. Shouldn't we also apply that theory to our corner of the music education world, pulling support from professional musicians and educators at every other level of instrumental music and the marching activity? I hate to say it, because I'll probably get blasted for being "arrogant" again, but experience counts for more than nothing. Edited November 25, 2007 by HoltonH178 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts