George Hopkins vs. Scott Stewart

[CrunchyTenor]

It makes sense because of this that you said...

There is no equivalent opportunity for 1/2 of the winds to experience that level.

Start: Broken record

Mike, if you want to provide that experience, go start a band circuit. Don't expect DCI to cater to WW's. It's not what drum corps, as a brass and percussion ensemble, is there to serve.

If you want to, I can put you in touch with one of the principle people from Summer Bands circuit from the West Coast. He can tell you all about how they organized it, operated it, and shut it down because it failed miserably.

Garry in Vegas

Edited November 24, 2007 by CrunchyTenor

[HockeyDad]

You are the only person I know who gets off taking apart posts with thousands of characters, and sniping at people with one-line quibbles.

Life much?

Guess that makes me special. Everybody on DCP quotes from others' posts. Why are you bothered by it now? A couple pages ago you did an uber dissection of a post and responded to it probably 10 times in one post. Again, Pot. Kettle. Don't like it when someone points out to you that you're engaging in the very same behavior you don't tolerate?

[DrumCorpsFan27]

But the vast majority of brass players currently in drum corps would not march if it was all woodwinds, but they still invest the blood, sweat, and tears required because they have never been faced with the decision.

Brass players are not automatically more determined to do whatever it takes than woodwind players, but they have been given a distinct advantage when it comes to marching drum corps.

So?

Really, whatever issue in life, some will have advantages over others. It's a fact of life. Deal with it. I want to be president but I don't want to go through the media scrutiny. So I demand that the whole electoral process be changed so that I can get my name on the ballot because I am at a disadvantage as never having been a politician. It's just not fair and everyone should have the chance.

Change for me, change for ME, CHANGE FOR ME OR ELSE!

[CrunchyTenor]

Let them sue for discrimination. It's not fair, it's not fair, it's not fair.

Hey, David? Remember the thread on RAMD a few years ago about those discriminatory practices of the Scouts and Cavaliers because they don't allow females? Don't the pro-WW arguments sound familiar?

At least WW players only need to learn a new instrument. It's cheaper and easier than a sex change operation.

Oh, here's something else I find funny...WOODWINDS TO THE BOX!

Garry in Vegas

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Yeah, I think we are on the same page. It isn't anyones fault really that the brass has an advantage.

All I'm saying is that if the shoe was on the other foot there would be plenty of people currently marching who wouldn't because they wouldn't want to learn to play a different instrument to march.

Here's the key word "want." Those who want it will work for it. The opportunity is there for anyone who wants it.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

David:

Parts of Scott's vision are what caused the Scouts to miss finals. He didn't really care all that much for the developments and emphasis on the color guard. And he lost touch with the successful visual elements of the late 90s shows. His traditional approach was even challenged by corps members who asked him point blank whether missing finals in Madison was part of his plan.

One more thing...Scott's vision also had little respect for the adjudictors. He didn't believe that most were qualified enough to judge drum corps. I heard his say as much in respect to DCM judges. He used to send international members (who struggled with English) to critique instead of staff members. Happen twice I know of during the 1998 season.

He tried to work within the system to make change, but it was his rebellion against the systems in both DCM and DCI that led to the ultimate mutiny...with the BoD at Madison...then the ouster of that Board...Scott's brief return....then the final swift flush.

I know...it's history and my version of that history. So, take your shots...but, the real test will come for Scott's vision over the next couple of years with the current Madison corps. I know lots of those guys and they cut their teeth in drum corps under Scott's leadership. It could very well be the "phoenix" of Scott's vision and in time, it may turn out to be a fitting tribute to his vision.

We shall see.

I don't know if it was Scott's vision for the corps to miss finals. I would not have chosen to send those members to the critiques. This, IMO, was a poor choice that had no chance of helping his cause. No he did not care for the judges, this is true. I do believe that the competitive aspect of the activity adds to the excitement of the evening. I know a few of the guys running the Scouts now and I have a lot of respect for them. I hope they can find a way to show us all that a corps can be a crowd pleaser and a judge pleaser at the same time. We shall see.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

And if there are no doers there will be no watchers. Your point?

There are doers, because there are watchers. The doers will not exist without the watchers. However, the watchers can choose to watch something else. The doers must respect the watchers, not the other way around. When the doers respect the watchers, then the watchers can respect the doers and what they do.

[CrunchyTenor]

One more thing...Scott's vision also had little respect for the adjudictors. He didn't believe that most were qualified enough to judge drum corps. I heard his say as much in respect to DCM judges. He used to send international members (who struggled with English) to critique instead of staff members. Happen twice I know of during the 1998 season.

Hey, Tom? Did you get a chance to read Hopkins' rants about the judges on his blog? I think it was in 2006. I guess they just didn't get his vision, and that made them bad.

Just thought I'd throw that out there in the context of the GH vs. SS topic.

Garry in Vegas

[DrumCorpsFan27]

It is a singular, minor, restraining, un-defining difference, unimportant to all but the most stubborn and blind (who just happen to be in extra-strong concentration on DCP), and I'm really tired of bothering with people who just can't tolerate change or growth.

I can and have tolerated much change and growth in this activity. Believe it or not, I approve of more than I disapprove. It is you, who is stubborn and blind when you insist that change and growth can only happen by adding woodwinds. That is simply not true. Marching bands have had woodwinds all the time. Have they not grown and changed? Drum corps have never had woodwinds. Have they not grown and changed?

Your average person on the street, the ones who apparently we have completely forsaken and will never get into drum corps, ever, does not know the difference between woodwinds and brass and wouldn't understand why DCI is brass-only without an explanation.

Then why has summer drum corps succeded where summer marching band has failed? Must be something in the differences between them.

The experience for the marching members, "the kids," as we repeat over and over being the focus of our activity, would be greater with woodwinds (more over, legalizing all instrumentation--including strings! omgz!) added. Simply put, more people would be able to play, serious musicians will be more able to participate without being set back professionally, and that is a good thing. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your ways hold me back as a drum corps student. Times change. Things change. Including drum corps and marching band. Get. Over. IT.

How does the experience become greater by adding woodwinds? Listen, if drum corps is going to set you back professionally, then choose to do something else. Apparently you didn't. Why? Because it is worth it. That's why. So don't complain about being held back professionally when you could choose other wise. Quit complaining and get over it.

Unfortunately, those many who disagree seem to think they're more important than everyone else involved in this activity, including those who actively invest thousands of hours and dollars into it. Hm.

Listen sonny, I have spent more than thousands directly on the activity. I have been active in the activity beyond my marching years. I have contributed, donated, volunteered and helped out. You seem to think your the most important just because you march right now. I got news for you, it's not all about you.

This had nothing to do with what I was talking about. If you're going to cherry-pick my posts from conversations with other people and harass me about them, then at least talk about things relevant to the original post.

I've marched BOA GN finals and DCI World Class finals. DCI and marching band will always be two unique entities. You are not even qualified to claim to know otherwise, because you clearly did not have the kind of experience that is offered to students today in BOA. End of discussion.

You talk about others feeling more important and you go around saying who is qualifed and who is not? I marched drum corps and I marched marching band. That's right, I have them both. Discussion reopened young Mr. High-and-mighty.

One far more than the other, and even those bitter alumni who spend a year or two away from finals because they're too busy having their panties in a twist about the instruments we play will (hopefully) come around because the experience for the kids will have improved and maintained all of the best elements from when they were members.

If not, then I stick by my original statement of "good riddance."

No, one goes with the other. And for those nonbrass players who have their panties in a twist about not being able to play their instrument whenever they want and where ever they want will hopefully understand to get the full experience you must become the full experience. Then we can discuss improving the product.

Neither do dinosaurs, as evidenced by this thread. Pretending like it's 1972 does no one any good.

No one is advocating that we remain in 1972. You are saying that the only way to grow and change is your way. If we don't, we hold you back professionally. That's your choice, not drum corps, so quit blaming drum corps for it.

Do those thousands of dollars go into the activity? No, they go to priceline.com, Continental Airlines, and the Hilton Company. Thanks for contributing to the American economy!...not so much drum corps.

And who do you think spends thousands of dollars on tickets, CDs, DVDs, T-shirts, etc. That's right, the ones willing to spend thousands to come and watch. you sound like an intelligent person,are you truly that unaware?

That's right, DCI is NOT capable of doing things differently than they've done before! You heard it here, folks! Oh, wait...isn't that what you're all so ###### off about?

Here you do just what you complain others are doing to you...putting words into my mouth. There are many ways to change, not just your way.

I do take the experience, and I would appreciate not being criticized for my choice to dedicate myself to the activity and its promotion in spite of its (currently) detrimental effect to my professional career. Most people would probably think that a good thing, but this IS DCP, where anyone who thinks differently is Satan.

I have not criticized your dedication nor your promotion of the activity. Again, you complain about the detriment to your professional career. No one made you march. No one keeps you marching. You choose that all by yourself. That's not evil. That's life. Quit blaming drum corps for holding you back. Drum corps is not holding you back. If your career is being held back because of drum corps, then it is your own choice that is holding you back, hence, you are holding yourself back. Life is about making decisions. You made yours. I made mine. Cool. Quit complaining.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

"Drum corps...our way or no way."

Great business model there. Sure you'll promote the growth of the activity that way, chum.

Are you not saying "my way or no way?" Yes you are, chum.