The market is self-correcting

[audiodb]

The error in your logic, in my opinion, is that drum corps IS summer marching band... albeit a niche derivative that creates performances at a high level of achievement.

No, it isn't....not quite yet, anyway.

[JimF-LowBari]

The error in your logic, in my opinion, is that drum corps IS summer marching band... albeit a niche derivative that creates performances at a high level of achievement.

If I read it correctly another error in the logic is that DCI is the market, DCI is only part of the market. Off the top of my head I'd say DCA, marching bands, parade groups, <Hades> even the Mummers and pipe bands are part of the "marching and music" market. Have already read that people are trying DCA instead of DCI. In the car market this would equate to Ford buyers trying Chevys because they didn't like how Ford changed their cars.

Not sure if that was Erics orignal intent but think some people have mistaken DCI = market.

[BD2Rings]

Jim stated:

Self correcting markets can be Hades on the groups/companies making up said market. And sometimes the group/companies never recover where they were before.

Just ask the American car companies when they misjudged the small car market and the Japanese got a BIG foothold on the market.

And how many Rambler/American Motors products are still being sold....

and it really hit home with me, only in reverse to his example.

The American car companies misjudged the market, and another got a big foothold. I believe DCI is misjudging the market, but I question where the new entry will come from. It has been suggested it will be DCA, and if so, so be it. If DCI's judgement is incorrect, then this niche will continue it's path and be gone. I see DCA as an even smaller niche, but I hope to be proven wrong.

I'm having trouble coming up with an analogous example here. The best I've thought of so far is the home milk delivery companies. It was a hit for a number of years, but as it became progressively expensive to provide the service, fewer and fewer companies were willing to provide the service. The supermarket came along, which provided the technical improvements not found on the trucks, and they did not have to bother with the potential negative impacts of leaving the milk on the porch. Advances in technology fed the demise of the delivery industry. When it was gone, it was gone. We now have these super stores to handle all our needs, not unlike the elaborate concert venues available now for our entertainmenet dollar.

I would prefer not to think of my years in drum corps as the equivalent of a Nash Rambler or Studebaker. Milk delivery only applied to a small group of the populace, as has drum corps. When the market's attention moved elsewhere, the delivery stopped. Funny that these super stores will now deliver, and Star of Indiana now delivers too.

[eddylyons]

If this "brave new world" of DCI winds up smelling like the back bay at low tide, it's pretty safe to assume that this electronic trickery will go away, and the pendulum will swing back again.

...

Give this time... it's either going to work or it isn't... and in the mean time, it might just provide the memory of a lifetime for the young performers and might even wind up engaging some talented kids who wouldn't have otherwise had the chance to be the new creators, composer and visionaries for the next generation.

...

All of this talk about abandoning the activity and flocking to DCA, wearing abusive t-shirts and such is just foolishness. The market will self-correct if this is horrible... and it MIGHT just garner more attention if it's not. After watching what's going on in other art forms (including DCA's mini-corps), however, something tells me that the next great explosion of creativity is about to begin, whether we like it or not.

You should lurk more... and read poll results. The proposals that received the most voting activity are about the electronics changes. At least 2/3 of the votes (higher in some of the polls) say that the electronics changes are a bad thing. It could be that DCP forum members are totally biased towards tradition... but I don't think so.

It was the DCI instructor's caucuses that tabled the 2 No Electronics proposals from getting to the DCI board and allowed the Yes Electronic Instruments and Yes Amplification on the Field proposals to go through. It was the DCI board who voted to allow electronic instruments and amplification in 2009.

IMHO, I don't believe for a second that the instructors or the board are really concerned more for what the fans (or the corps members, for that matter) want than their own personal agendas for "creativity".

To say the market is self-correcting assumes their is a market.

[GMichael1230]

After lurking around here for years, I decided to finally "join the fun" today, after reading about the new rules.

My contention is this:

Drum corps is about excellence and creativity. It's a highly personalized experience, which is why (in my opinion) there's so much hysteria about things like this... everyone wants it to "stay" the way it was when it impacted their lives.

Creative people, however, are seldom satisfied with the status quo.

If this "brave new world" of DCI winds up smelling like the back bay at low tide, it's pretty safe to assume that this electronic trickery will go away, and the pendulum will swing back again.

Am I the only one who remembers when Cirque de Soleil was actually a circus? It has evolved, gotten one heck of a lot more dependent on technology, and is more popular than ever. I'm sure that there are people in French-speaking Canada who are still upset that Vegas has absorbed a zillion different Cirque troupes, and their beloved Celine as well... but I digress.

Give this time... it's either going to work or it isn't... and in the mean time, it might just provide the memory of a lifetime for the young performers and might even wind up engaging some talented kids who wouldn't have otherwise had the chance to be the new creators, composer and visionaries for the next generation.

All of this talk about abandoning the activity and flocking to DCA, wearing abusive t-shirts and such is just foolishness. The market will self-correct if this is horrible... and it MIGHT just garner more attention if it's not. After watching what's going on in other art forms (including DCA's mini-corps), however, something tells me that the next great explosion of creativity is about to begin, whether we like it or not.

I may not be thrilled with the changes, but I'm going to support the activity that has given so much to me. Excellence is still excellence, and I'm anxious to see how this comes out.

Yes inded, excellence is still escellence and nothing that amplification and amped vocals has brought to the activity has been excellent.

It is not creative to change rules to be able to create. It is true creativity when you can break new ground within defined, established paramaters.

Adding amplification, voice, keyboards/electronics and such is simply taking a shortcut to the final idea.

A great designer/instructor/creator will find a way to get his idea across without having to alter the activity and change it into something else...thats pure laziness, offense intended.

There will not be a next great explosion of activity, new ideas, new standards. Drum corps as we knew it is dead. Anything that comes now will be ideas already tried in marching band. Crutches galore, shortcuts galore, integrity challenged and lackluster, subpar, second rate results will occur.......

They forgot to vote for one more rule down in Orlando: Allow for all corps to now carry and use the "Easy button".

~G~

Edited January 30, 2008 by GMichael1230

[LAMystreaux]

It is not creative to change rules to be able to create. It is true creativity when you can break new ground within defined, established paramaters.

Adding amplification, voice, keyboards/electronics and such is simply taking a shortcut to the final idea.

A great designer/instructor/creator will find a way to get his idea across without having to alter the activity and change it into something else...thats pure laziness, offense intended.

It is a big assumption, and quite incorrect I think, to assume the reason for the rules proposals are because the designers and instructors are out of creative ideas. Honestly, that is pretty insulting given the talent and years of experience those involved have.

Also, answer me this:

How does the mere inclusion of amps/electronics make something no longer excellent? The Bluecoats were excellent this past summer (most agree). When that bullhorn was picked up in that small part of their show, were they no longer excellent? Crown. . .awesome show, were they excellent except for those 15-20 seconds of their show?

Excellence is still excellence, right?

[sblez]

Really good points being made all around. A point that I liked particularly was that DCI is not the market. This is partly correct and partly incorrect. DCI, the organization is the market for the several thousand young people who come to it and pay $X to participate with a given corps and extract an experience. At some point do the changes affect this market and the demand for the limited number of spots available. Also, at what point will the increasing fees make it cost prohibative for many young people to participate. It's probably been at that point for a while. So this market does affect it's participants.

From another perspective DCI is not the market but the product. The market being the alums, parents and DCI fans that are neither of the first two groups. Will the changes we are seeing affect this market? Absolutely. But my question is this: Will the use of electronics, amplification, lighted billboards, kazoos or other new componets significantly reduce the crowds coming out to the shows? Probably not the moms, dads grandpas, grandmas, aunts and uncles who what kids in the corps. Probably not the group that just love the activity - the sound, the volume, the visuals, etc. What about the alums or the purists who long for the days when they marched and look at the changes as a bad thing? Yes, these folks, many of who have commented here, will probably not go to as many shows or may stop coming altogether and that is sad. One thing that may have a greater effect on the market will be things like ticket prices, fuel costs and the composition of the shows themselves (number of corps, corps attending, etc.)

While I am not a fan of GH, der change meister, or a lot of what is being implemented I do know that the only thing constant IS change and that if drum corps does not change it WILL stagnate and will become a lesser version of itself. We all look at activities we were once involved in and we look at the current versions of the activity with a highly critical eye. Generally current versions NEVER live up to the standards that we recall.

I personally NEVER marched drum corps but my son has, my daughter hopefully will this year, daughter no 2 in another year or so and I absolutely love it! I will complain about the things I don't like but I'll probably hang in there and continue to go see shows even after my kids are out of it. The one thing that I try to remember is that no matter how a corps accessorizes its show, the basis is still an incredible performance by a group of highly talented young people. No amp, no electronic keyboard and, heaven forbid, no saxaphone will ever negate that fact.

Looking forward to a great 2008.

Steve

Dad of a BlueCoat and Hopefully a Spirit member

[audiodb]

While I am not a fan of GH, der change meister, or a lot of what is being implemented I do know that the only thing constant IS change and that if drum corps does not change it WILL stagnate and will become a lesser version of itself.

Why? Soccer hasn't been changing. Has it stagnated? Well, maybe it has - it is still stuck in that world's-most-popular-sport rut. But it hasn't become a lesser version of itself.

[Coathope]

It is a big assumption, and quite incorrect I think, to assume the reason for the rules proposals are because the designers and instructors are out of creative ideas. Honestly, that is pretty insulting given the talent and years of experience those involved have.

It may be insulting. However, if they in fact have some creative ideas, why look for electronics to expand? They are just fine without them. It isn't needed.

Edited February 1, 2008 by Coathope

[euponitone]

It is a big assumption, and quite incorrect I think, to assume the reason for the rules proposals are because the designers and instructors are out of creative ideas. Honestly, that is pretty insulting given the talent and years of experience those involved have.

Also, answer me this:

How does the mere inclusion of amps/electronics make something no longer excellent? The Bluecoats were excellent this past summer (most agree). When that bullhorn was picked up in that small part of their show, were they no longer excellent? Crown. . .awesome show, were they excellent except for those 15-20 seconds of their show?

Excellence is still excellence, right?

Im gonna play both ends here with regards to tx and G. I am one to say that if its good...its good. There have been uses of amped sounds and even narration (even some narration from the cadets show) - that i thought were excellent. There has, however, been just as much 'bad', or lack of excellence, along with that. What I question now, I think, is why it is so vital to rush ahead into all of these new toys. Most corps have hardly figured out the old ones yet. All things considered, the cadets did a pretty good job this year with the technology required to move all those wireless mics on the field. That said, there is still a huge disparity in the performance (and composition levels) of spoken word, and amplified sounds, when compared to the more traditional elements. I'm not really sure how we expect to introduce electronics en masse, and amplified brass, when we cant even do a good job of amplifying the human voice yet. To me it seems like going from valve rotor bugles to Bb horns without stopping to realize if anyone knows how to use 3 valves yet.

I also have to make a mention of the point that G brought up. Im not quite as against change as he is, but I do question why it has to be so fast. Amps were supposed to be the next big thing to allow for new ideas, but now we are told that we've done all we can with those new toys, and now we need more??. Compared to the usual rate of evolution (or degeneration if you prefer) in dci, things seem to be progressing at an awfully fast pace nowadays. Even though I dont mind seeing things change from my marching days, I am a firm believer that true creativity is best inspired by limitations. It took 35 years to run out of ideas for acoustic shows - now, after 5, apparently amps are old news as well.

Edited February 1, 2008 by euponitone