Interesting Comment from Hop

[GuyW]

OK, wait a second... why don't we require that we not discriminate against women first. Wouldn't that be the first, simple step? Last I checked, women were actively discouraged from trying out at Madison and Cavies.

If you want to talk about protected classes in an audition setting, let's first work on removing the self-imposed barriers before talking about anything league-wide.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

WTF? Some of this land is still "America".

Let any corps choose to be all-male, all-female, all black, Indian, mixed, whatever. It's called "freedom of association".

[Senagod]

Everyone might be welcome if they show up at the door with enough cash, but how about letting more people know about the party? What about those who can't afford the tickets to the party? I wouldn't exactly describe someone who's never heard of DCI, never had the opportunity to learn an instrument at school, and/or can't afford it as "choosing" not to participate. Is that person really not participating because of "cultural differences and rational choices?"

No one's suggesting forcing anyone to march against their will in order to create some sort of artificially induced diversity, and just because he uses a percentage to make his case doesn't mean anyone's suggesting that corps use some sort of minority quota system. I guess I missed the part that implies we should feel bad about those numbers. To me, saying that DCI isn't perfect and could do a better job recuriting members from different racial or socioeconomic backgrouds isn't suggesting wrongdoing, just that maybe there's improvments that could be made in this aspect.

I don't beleive that noting a disparity in minority participation levels of an activity and questioning how to help close the gap as "patronizing" or "guilt mongering." I'd call it sound managment.

Amen. My "choice" not to do DCI wasn't much of a choice. It was either do drum corps or go to college. I consider myself lucky that I even heard about DCI when I was in high school because of a band director that would show us tapes.

DCI or the individual corps could do things to encourage music in the inner-city schools. It doesn't have to be much. Even the smallest things can make a difference.

And back to the Stanford discussion, can I just add that I'm so jealous of college students today? All these colleges offering free tuition to students whose families could make way more than my family did...where was this when I was in school?

[quegrawks]

My first thought, how about more groups like Cadets of NYC that reach out to disadvantaged youth..

Oh yeah, if you're not in a Top 12 corps no one hears anything about you....

Those kids are so cute! And they can play pretty well too!

I attended a grant writing seminar and the speaker said that the best way to get a grant is to say that the funds are going to target inner-city middle school aged children. Get them hooked young, and help the community at the same time!

[quegrawks]

Amen. My "choice" not to do DCI wasn't much of a choice. It was either do drum corps or go to college. I consider myself lucky that I even heard about DCI when I was in high school because of a band director that would show us tapes.

DCI or the individual corps could do things to encourage music in the inner-city schools. It doesn't have to be much. Even the smallest things can make a difference.

And back to the Stanford discussion, can I just add that I'm so jealous of college students today? All these colleges offering free tuition to students whose families could make way more than my family did...where was this when I was in school?

Same situation here. I auditioned for Crossmen, which I had to pay out of pocket, and after the first camp my grandmother (who raised me) said from now on I needed to find my own way to camp...a 3 + hour trip one way and pay for everything myself, plus save up for college. I wish I could have afforded to do DCI, but that was a long time ago, and I was making about $4 an hour working over the summers.

As for Stanford thing-- how about my family made HALF of what they are saying now they will give free tuition to (what $60,000 a year?) and I still had to pay full tuition and room and board! College won out over DCI because I felt a good education in the classroom would take me further with what I wanted to do as a career.

[drumcat]

WTF? Some of this land is still "America".

Let any corps choose to be all-male, all-female, all black, Indian, mixed, whatever. It's called "freedom of association".

And you missed the point. Corps can associate any way they want. My thesis was simple -- drum corps isn't in a position to dictate while it isn't entirely inclusive.

So yes, corps can be all-whatever. But until they aren't, it's hypocritical to act as a social tool.

Relax.

[FUGI]

And I happen to think it's funny that everyone assumes to some degree that minorities are all either poor, inner-city, or planning to attend an HBCU school.

I was thinking the same thing. Believe it or not there are minorities that do not live in the inner city, there are minorities that aren't financially lower class, and there are minorities that are music majors at non HBCU.

[wishbonecav]

The "conversation" is actually doing a good job of cementing a few points.

First, that this "question" is inflammatory. It is simply an impossible and unquantifiable argument.

I didn't say the idea isn't noble. But nobility is a concept, not a flesh-and-blood reality, that gets to be defined by the person making the argument. They decide who, what, where, when and to what degree and do it in a way that somehow establishes some non-existent moral high ground where no other opinions need apply. That's what makes this kind of conversation impossible.

We act as a mouthpiece for mystery people we've never met, define their problems for them and then provide the solution that WE desire? And do it without making so much as a phone call or neighborhood visit to talk to REAL people and find out what THEY need, want or desire. In my experience, most of them want to be left alone.

PETA does this kind of thing. Does anyone really know what a dolphin wants? But "well-meaning people" feel free to define the argument and speak on the dolphin's behalf. And it only leads to frustration, rather than understanding. I would bet the dolphin just wants to be LEFT ALONE!

Second, that stuff happens, limits exist, and that we dont always get the outcome we might desire. Well, gee whiz. That sounds like LIFE.

There are limitations in resources, effort, information and support in EVERYTHING we do. This isn't a negative.

Limitations are a strong driver to achievement. Whose achievement? One's OWN.

And "I didn't know how to achieve" or "I didn't have all the information" is a good way of avoiding accountability for choices. Or "I could've done X" or "I should've done Y" or "my parents didn't do Z" is akin to building in today's excuse for tommorrows failure.

Here's the difference...we can't DO everything! Every time we CHOOSE to do something (or nothing) with our limited time, limited resources and limited energy, in effect we CHOOSE not to do ALL THE OTHER THINGS. That's called need and value-based priority decision making.

And no one can do that for you better than you do it yourself.

This was fun. Fire away.

[Fran Haring]

Diversity in Madison 1971. Something much more difficult to achieve nowadays due to the cost.

BTW Scott Stewart is in this photo if you can find him.

1971.... so where's "Alice" in that picture?

Fran

[Senagod]

The "conversation" is actually doing a good job of cementing a few points.

First, that this "question" is inflammatory. It is simply an impossible and unquantifiable argument.

I didn't say the idea isn't noble. But nobility is a concept, not a flesh-and-blood reality, that gets to be defined by the person making the argument. They decide who, what, where, when and to what degree and do it in a way that somehow establishes some non-existent moral high ground where no other opinions need apply. That's what makes this kind of conversation impossible.

We act as a mouthpiece for mystery people we've never met, define their problems for them and then provide the solution that WE desire? And do it without making so much as a phone call or neighborhood visit to talk to REAL people and find out what THEY need, want or desire. In my experience, most of them want to be left alone.

PETA does this kind of thing. Does anyone really know what a dolphin wants? But "well-meaning people" feel free to define the argument and speak on the dolphin's behalf. And it only leads to frustration, rather than understanding. I would bet the dolphin just wants to be LEFT ALONE!

Second, that stuff happens, limits exist, and that we dont always get the outcome we might desire. Well, gee whiz. That sounds like LIFE.

There are limitations in resources, effort, information and support in EVERYTHING we do. This isn't a negative.

Limitations are a strong driver to achievement. Whose achievement? One's OWN.

And "I didn't know how to achieve" or "I didn't have all the information" is a good way of avoiding accountability for choices. Or "I could've done X" or "I should've done Y" or "my parents didn't do Z" is akin to building in today's excuse for tommorrows failure.

Here's the difference...we can't DO everything! Every time we CHOOSE to do something (or nothing) with our limited time, limited resources and limited energy, in effect we CHOOSE not to do ALL THE OTHER THINGS. That's called need and value-based priority decision making.

And no one can do that for you better than you do it yourself.

This was fun. Fire away.

Good points. I'll throw in one thing, though. It's kind of hard to need, want, or desire something if you've never seen it. Economically disadvantaged students of all races aren't getting exposed to music in the public schools. If you've never had something, of course you're not going to want it. Would you argue that music shouldn't be taught in the schools?

I'm coming from the position that music should be taught in all schools. Once that is achieved, then if economically disadvantaged people choose not to march corps, that's fine. At least there was an opportunity for education.

And I feel I can speak about economically disadvantaged people because my family was pretty disadvantaged. It's a good thing I was smart and got a great financial aid package from a good school or else I'd still be in my hometown with 5 kids and either working at the Sheetz or unemployed like everybody else that stayed there. With that, plus the year I spent working in the Philly schools, I think I have some experience.

[Senagod]

Same situation here. I auditioned for Crossmen, which I had to pay out of pocket, and after the first camp my grandmother (who raised me) said from now on I needed to find my own way to camp...a 3 + hour trip one way and pay for everything myself, plus save up for college. I wish I could have afforded to do DCI, but that was a long time ago, and I was making about $4 an hour working over the summers.

As for Stanford thing-- how about my family made HALF of what they are saying now they will give free tuition to (what $60,000 a year?) and I still had to pay full tuition and room and board! College won out over DCI because I felt a good education in the classroom would take me further with what I wanted to do as a career.

You're lucky. My mom would've locked me in the house before I even made it to an audition! This is the same woman that refused to pay my $40 application fee to any colleges in big cities because she didn't want her child going to college in a large city.

You should've applied to a higher priced school. Syracuse gave me way more aid than Penn State or Maryland. Can you imagine today? We'd be getting free tuition and free room and board at Stanford, or we could go to Yale or Harvard. It's funny that these places think that low income is making less than $100,000 a year. Where we come from, if your family makes $80,000 a year, you're rich! Ah, the joys of growing up in central PA.