DCA is "filling a void" left by DCI's Super Corps Model

[Dale Bari]

Noted.

<cease fire resolution being drafted by the Senate at present>

one final point...DCA should approach recently folded corps to present DCA as an option for them. I'd be anxious to hear their response. Anxious to hear.

Well, I don't know that DCA SHOULD approach them. After all, this entire exercise in near-futility has been about merely a proposal by an interested bystander, not an official policy from DCA - not even a musing about a possibility that someone in DCA might think about becoming tangentially involved with proposing such a policy.

It would be an interesting situation IF DCA did make such an overture, and one that DCI would be quite upset about. After all, if a corps has recently gone inactive, then DCI would reasonably expect that this hypothetical corps would return as a DCI corps. If DCA looks like it's trying to scarf up a not-quite-cold-dead corps, it would be considered bad form. So, now the question is how long does a corps have to be "dead" before etiquette says it's OK to try to convince them to "come back to life" in DCA?

[This is all quite reminiscent of the thread where EnGarde has decided to switch to being a DCI corps, instead of DCA, because of DCI's insistence that that corps not recruit against the local, established DCI corps if it weren't going to DCI. Thus, it was revealed that the local DCA corps that already exist have policies that exclude active recruitment of DCI age members. If said members approach the local DCA corps on their own, they may join but the all-agers don't try to "poach" - I think was a term someone used. If an inactive DCI corps approached DCA, asking for admittance, all deals are off.]

The Kilties are the only extant example of a "dead" DCI corps resurrected as an active DCA corps. They were dead for, what 12 years? more? Does that set the standard? Or should it be more or less?

What if an independent group of people, clearly from all-age group(s), but not officially from DCA, attempts to lobby wavering or inactive DCI corps to join DCA? Is that the same thing? Would this cause internecine warfare between the two orgs?

How much do the smaller DCI corps know about DCA? Would they actually seriously entertain any kind of pitch along these lines? Who knows?

I think I would be anxious to hear as well.

Edited March 10, 2008 by Dale Bari

[Meaghatron]

snip

But even though those are the most obvious things not to do, I'm sure there have been corps directors who have done them. Some corps do have limited touring schedules to help stay financially upright. The Academy? Pioneer? There are plenty of great organizations to model from regarding proper corps management. And you're right, there are other reasons that corps fold. However, I doubt they are due to "Yeah, we had to by electronics. Darn those things that we don't need. We folded because of them." Adding more members (supposedly) is to fill up empty seats already on buses. Besides, even the top corps don't necessarily field an entire corps. If memory serves me correct, 2006 was the first time The Cavaliers fielded an entire 135-member corps.

Some corps management just don't know when to stop, either. Southwind, who I believe doesn't use amps, is inactive this season to come back next season even more financially strong. How many corps kept fielding a corps, when they knew they didn't have the money to do so? How many corps have ended up in severe debt because of mismanagement?

Corps management makes mistakes. Besides instruction, a corps needs to have great business leaders. And some corps don't seem to have them.

On the other hand, other corps have great management. They know when and where to spend money, and others even know when to take a year off or how to pay their debts.

I don't follow DCA at all (although I might end up marching a DCA corps next year ), but it does seem that they have a great touring model. I think the biggest problem is that corps need to be managed by people who have a business background. Also, they need to work with DCI regarding touring. Regarding the OP, I don't believe there is a void that needs to be filled. However, I do think it is great that DCA is expanding and bringing more variety (and corps) to the drum corps world.

[Tom Brace]

Yours is quite an obvious example of what NOT to do, as a corps director, as well as one that probably would not happen in a real-life corps. So, what is the purpose of posing such an argument, except as a strawman?

Would that that were the only way to interpret the situation. As I have seen audiodb (and others) do repeatedly, they would point to the (seemingly annual) addition of new equipment, the push toward corps being on the road more and more days, and the allowance of more members (that only benefits corps that turn away potential members already) as creating extra strains on DCI corps' budgets that may push some corps, otherwise fiscally sound in the absence of those pressures, to the brink of folding. [Did I leave any out?]

In any case, that is a more realistic interpretation of the situation. I think that reasonable minds can disagree on the truth of it. It may be that these pressures are exaggerated or that DCI has accounted for the additional burdens and has provided help to sustain those budgets. The history of drum corps is that most corps fold, and they each do so for a host of reasons. None of them, except outright fraud, could possibly be clearly pointed to as the "smoking gun" in any of them. So, let us not pretend that the case history is as starkly unambiguous as you portray.

The history of drum corps should cause all concerned to desire to limit the pressures on corps' budgets, not increase them.

Allow me to give you three examples from my history.

Phantom Regiment circa 1995-1999

Tarheel Sun...from the moment they became a Div. I corps

Americanos...I hope their operations and fundraising efforts never get investigated.

OH...and let's add the 90s era Magic under the leadership of Terry what's her name.

Edited March 10, 2008 by Tom Brace

[Dale Bari]

[snipped for brevity]

I would stipulate all that you say, except: "However, I doubt they are due to 'Yeah, we had to by [sic] electronics. Darn those things that we don't need. We folded because of them.'" Also, I find it highly unlikely that Cavaliers had difficulty recruiting such that they were not ever full until 2006.

I would only say that mismanagement is problematic, but it is class of problems, not a single problem in and of itself. What I have been describing is "mismanagement" too. It is giving in to pressures that DCI has itself created and not handling them properly. The rules changes are bad in the sense that they give corps more opportunties to screw up, hence they are not desirable. Here endeth my opposition to them.

I only argue the rules changes from my own POV as a spectator - they're not something that I like a whole lot. I condition my attendance to DCI on my assessment of how entertained I will be that night, and I use my past experience to help answer that question. Lately, it's not been all positive, but that's another argument.

(edited 'cuz I finally figured out exactly what I wanted to say. I don't think the edits negate Meghan's response to the original form.)

Edited March 10, 2008 by Dale Bari

[Dale Bari]

Allow me to give you three examples from my history.

Phantom Regiment circa 1995-1999

Tarheel Sun...from the moment they became a Div. I corps

Americanos...I hope their operations and fundraising efforts never get investigated.

OH...and let's add the 90s era Magic under the leadership of Terry what's her name.

Well, you'll have to expand on the PR and Tarheel examples so I can grasp your exact point.

If you are implying what I think you are about the other two, note that I did except fraud as an example of a crystal clear reason for folding.

Besides, I guess I should have added the phrase "in today's environment", 'cuz corps directors in the past could probably do what Meaghan originally described and still think their corps could survive. I doubt any honest corps director today could envision behaving in that manner and remaining director of a solvent corps for very long.

[Meaghatron]

I would stipulate all that you say, except: "However, I doubt they are due to 'Yeah, we had to by [sic] electronics. Darn those things that we don't need. We folded because of them.'" Also, I find it highly unlikely that Cavaliers had difficulty recruiting such that they were not ever full until 2006.

I would only say that mismanagement is a true problem - and giving them more reasons to screw up is not desirable.

I only argue the rules changes from my own POV - they're not something that I like a whole lot. I condition my attendance to DCI on my assessment of how entertained I will be that night, and I use my past experience to help answer that question. Lately, it's not been all positive, but that's another argument.

To quote Tom, noted.

And I'm not a big fan of the new rule changes either, but I still attend DCI because the shows, to me, are incredibly entertaining.

[Tom Brace]

I would stipulate all that you say, except: "However, I doubt they are due to 'Yeah, we had to by [sic] electronics. Darn those things that we don't need. We folded because of them.'" Also, I find it highly unlikely that Cavaliers had difficulty recruiting such that they were not ever full until 2006.

I would only say that mismanagement is a true problem - and giving them more reasons to screw up is not desirable. Here endeth my opposition to them.

I only argue the rules changes from my own POV as a spectator - they're not something that I like a whole lot. I condition my attendance to DCI on my assessment of how entertained I will be that night, and I use my past experience to help answer that question. Lately, it's not been all positive, but that's another argument.

The rule changes are now the cause of a "void?"

The rules are not mandates, they are options. Corps can field up to 150 members. Corps can use amplified sound. Corps can use mic'd vocals and mic'd ensembles, etc. These are cans and not have tos.

And the recently added ones do not go into effect until the 2009 season.

So far, from 1972 on DCI has not folded one single corps.

Neither has the VFW/AL/DCA/DCM/etc. Circuits and organizations do not fold corps. corps' poor management decisions fold corps.

Phantom Regiment's issues during the mid to late 90s are legendary. Ask Joey. He seems to be an expert on this from some of his posts.

Tarheel Sun's director was indicted. He also left the students at U of Maryland in 2000 with little or no money for the trip home. DCI ended up helping foot the bill on the fuel costs to get the corps home.

Enough said?

[Dale Bari]

The rule changes are now the cause of a "void?"

I don't know. I didn't say that. To quote you, "Ask Joey."

The rules are not mandates, they are options. Corps can field up to 150 members. Corps can use amplified sound. Corps can use mic'd vocals and mic'd ensembles, etc. These are cans and not have tos.

And the recently added ones do not go into effect until the 2009 season.

No, they are not mandated by law, but ask yourself why all the World class corps use them, without exception? I don't know about Open class, but I suspect the former Div 2 corps used them as well. Do you think the OC corps are immune to the pressure to use them?

Drumcat and audiodb do a better job of arguing that, while not mandated by law, they are still "required" by the judging community. I happen to be simpathetic to that argument. If you don't give it any credence, I suggest you have a discussion with Donny Allen about it. Your invocation of the "not mandated by law" is a fig leaf.

OK, so electronics is not in play yet. That's irrelevant to what I've said. Besides, I don't know that I ever mentioned them.

So far, from 1972 on DCI has not folded one single corps.

Neither has the VFW/AL/DCA/DCM/etc. Circuits and organizations do not fold corps. corps' poor management decisions fold corps.

Again, another fig leaf. Congress doesn't pass a law saying a certain company has to shut down, but it may pass laws that change the environment which causes a buisness to close its doors. So, who closed them down? Mayor Giuliani cleared out the unsavory businesses from Times Square. He was not a dictator who walked in an ordered the doors closed, but it was done just the same. So, who closed them down? Yours is a strict interpretation of cause and effect that you apply unevenly.

I already handled the whole "mismanagement" semantic argument. See prior post.

Phantom Regiment's issues during the mid to late 90s are legendary. Ask Joey. He seems to be an expert on this from some of his posts.

OK, so PR had problems, I don't know how that argues against giving corps more opportunities to screw up. (In fact, it kind of argues against that, doesn't it?) Besides, it was your point. You want me to ask Joey to make your own point for you? That's awful lazy.

Tarheel Sun's director was indicted. He also left the students at U of Maryland in 2000 with little or no money for the trip home. DCI ended up helping foot the bill on the fuel costs to get the corps home.

"Indicted" would mean "illegalities", yes? Illegalities would mean fraud of some sort. "Asked and answered."

Enough said?

I don't know. What do you think?

Edited March 10, 2008 by Dale Bari

[Tom Brace]

I don't know. I didn't say that. To quote you, "Ask Joey."

No, they are not mandated by law, but ask yourself why all the World class corps use them, without exception? I don't know about Open class, but I suspect the former Div 2 corps used them as well. Do you think the OC corps are immune to the pressure to use them?

Drumcat and audiodb do a better job of arguing that, while not mandated by law, they are still "required" by the judging community. I happen to be simpathetic to that argument. If you don't give it any credence, I suggest you have a discussion with Donny Allen about it. Your invocation of the "not mandated by law" is a fig leaf.

OK, so electronics is not in play yet. That's irrelevant to what I've said. Besides, I don't know that I ever mentioned them.

Again, another fig leaf. Congress doesn't pass a law saying a certain company has to shut down, but it may pass laws that change the environment which causes a buisness to close its doors. So, who closed them down? Mayor Giuliani cleared out the unsavory businesses from Times Square. He was not a dictator who walked in an ordered the doors closed, but it was done just the same. So, who closed them down? Yours is a strict interpretation of cause and effect that you apply unevenly.

I already handled the whole "mismanagement" semantic argument. See prior post.

OK, so PR had problems, I don't know how that argues against giving corps more opportunities to screw up. (In fact, it kind of argues against that, doesn't it?) Besides, it was your point. You want me to ask Joey to make your own point for you? That's awful lazy.

"Indicted" would mean "illegalities", yes? Illegalities would mean fraud of some sort. "Asked and answered."

I don't know. What do you think?

Ah, but Mayor Giuliani DID act as a dictator to those businesses he deemed inappropriate for Times Square. And he was also a dictator against the rats in the subways! I would point you to past issues of the New York Post.

and what I said...so it's clear. DCI DOES NOT FORCE CORPS OUT OF BUSINESS. Corps' own management, in the past, made poor decisions which in some cases, led to corps folding. In other cases, like in the cases of Madison Scouts, or Phantom Regiment, led to declining years where they had to spend considerable amount of effort to get their accumulated debt behind them.

As far as DCI passing rules...you and others have already expressed your displeasure over these rules. I take a wait and see attitude. I believe that electronics or amplified pit or 150 members will not be the factor that causes a decline in the drum corps activity. It will be more about the current economic issues affecting EVERYTHING.

Fuel and food prices will cause most of the issues facing drum corps partici[ation and attendance. This will also affect the non-NE corps ability to attend DCA finals as well. But, I admit, the nationwide touring will be affected more.

There's a thread regarding this and comparing it to the 1970s. That was before DCI had a significant loss of local shows and still drum corps folded.

[hairbear]

Joey Cav,

Another thought provoking thread. Sorry I didn't jump in earlier. I wanted to, but I knew I would ramble, so I needed to make the proper time management considerations before writing my response.

Note: Sorry, but I’m not getting into whether DCI is better than DCA.

But…

I seem to remember, back in the early 90's when our corps (Empire) was really starting to feel vindicated about our contribution to the activity. We felt that we were building, and in some communities, Re-building the fan base of this activity.

We took every crazy gig we could. Literally! You hear people joking about playing supermarket openings… heck, we did fitty of those. Charity events, Dunk Tanks, Corporate Picnics, even Novelty Gift Stores (listen to the Statesmen, then come on in and buy a whoopee cushion). I should submit, for fairness sake, that we never actually did a Bar Mitzvah.

We had a competitive field show, a parade repertoire, and a 2 hour stage show which included several sub-repertoires. You need a half hour of patriotic tunes for a US Citizenship Swearing-In Ceremony? We got it. Big Band Swing? Russian Sailor’s Dance.? Heard It Through The Grapevine? Dance features, Rappin’ Drummers, Chorus. Gimmicks. Shtick. Props. Comedy. Just say the word.

Our attitude was that you never knew who was watching. For example, maybe a guy who played Fullback (or Nose Tackle) in HS and then played Lead Soprano in his local DCI corps 20 years ago, maybe a band director who is looking for an outlet on the weekends during the summer, or maybe a former drum corps guy who is THIS CLOSE to getting “the itch” again.

But we also knew that we might be selling a ticket to that week’s show, or that summer’s show in that town. Maybe five tickets. We might even be selling 10,000 tickets to a show 15 years from now. We knew we were on the same team as the show sponsors, and the judges were absolutely the least important people in the activity.

Were we hokey? Were we goofy? Were we cheesy? Yes, Yes, and Yes. Now get off our field.

You think it’s an accident there are 3000 people at a show in Little Falls, NY? No. We’ve been up there playing Bad Bad LeRoy Brown the last three Februarys.

Okay, what’s my point?

We became a community asset.

If you are starting a new drum corps in your town, start there.

Get known. One fan, one family, one sponsor at a time. I guarantee you 90% of Rochesterians know who you’re talking about when you mention “Those tuxedo guys with the flashy drum major.” I’m not kidding.

Have a set list of tunes that people actually want to hear… and then, if you want, put together a competitive show for the judges. And, with all due respect, ask yourself if playing “Gladiator” or “The Last Samurai” helps you achieve your 5 year plan.

To “The Activity:” Here’s an idea, let MCA corps in DCA shows. Quit complaining that fans don’t want to come to shows that are one week and 30 miles apart with the same 4 DCA corps (Nah, Ya think?). Throw in The Capital Brass, and/or the Golden Eagles, and/or the Ghost Riders, and/or the Erie Thunderbirds. Let them do an exhibition. Let the Hitmen, or the Prime Time Brass warm up the crowd for you.

And I would be remiss if I didn’t say this: Don’t let another Veteran be buried in your town to the sound of a boombox playing Taps. We’re all guilty.

Again Joey, great thread (I told you I would ramble).

GREAT POST TOM............TRUTH BE KNOWN,EMPIRE IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR DCA BEING AN ENTERTAINING ACTIVITY,AND MR.B POINTED ALL OF US IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION..............AND ALOT OF JR.CORPS COULD AND SHOULD MODEL THE METHOD! MAYBE THEN THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TO "BREAK THE BANK" TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH THE 'BIG GUNS"