Re the En Garde thread...my response

[84BDsop]

Well...I FINALLY got to this...I was originally going to write a nice, long dissertation, but decided that it would be better to let some others speak for me – people who have been through this situation before...although I WILL interject a few comments.

I will apologize now to those who’s emails and posts I am using, although I will not identify anyone...some of you wanted direct quotes...here they are.

(I had to split it up due to the numbe of quotes)

Part 1

On the issue of notice of the policy from DCI-P:

Were Renegades and SoCal dream represented at this meeting?

There was no specific meeting...this was a policy from DCI-P – one that I was not made aware of when I started En Garde....I would think that DCI would make something like this known to a new corps, especially a Sr starting up in a traditionally Jr area (I certainly would)...communication wasn’t overly good from DCI in some regards.

I can certainly understand DCI asking for some sort of friendly co-habitation if they were to have all-age corps at their events and DCA in turn asking for some friendly co-habitation in that at least I assume (I know I see Renegades are supporters of Blue Devils and Vanguard), that DCA supports DCI. One hand can wash the other so to speak. However, the statement above reads like, "you get in line, or we're going to punish your brothers - and you'll have to tell them what you did to them;" in which case, it seems that they weren't there. Is it normal practice for DCA corps to go to DCI meetings? And if so, why were the others (including Kingsmen who it appears want to have both a junior corps and an all-age unit next year) not present?

In fact, En Garde WAS required to attend the DCI-P meeting (we also tried to attend the DCA one, but our representative was turned away for some reason!)...a new corps – at least out West – has to be voted in in order to be allowed to participate at shows. En Garde WAS voted in...I cannot speak for Kingsmen, but I also don’t know if they sent a representative.

You have to remember that the ONLY shows out here in California are DCI ones....thus, we have to attend the DCI-P meeting in order to get in.

This from Crunchy Tenor....keep in mind that he WAS there at the first DCI meeting that involved SoCal Dream

Just to shed a little more light on the DCI-P seniors, there was a meeting with Dan Acheson the night before the DCI-P meetings in las Vegas in December of 2002. At that meeting, management team members from Renegades, SoCal Dream and Northwest Venture assured Dan that we were not in the business of competing with junior corps for members. When push comes to shove, it's better for the all-age corps to keep their membership above 18 for liability reasons. (Actually, 21 works even better for those who might want to enjoy an adult beverage at a site away from the contest after the show.)

I think SoCal Dream still has a disclaimer on their website encouraging DCI-eligible people to consider the various junior corps first. I think they still have links to all of them, too.

Personally, I feel if a DCI-eligible member wants to brush up or develop their skills to a higher level before auditioning for one of the junior corps, more power to them. I can think of at least 3 (and there are probably more) Renegades members who did exactly that. (A bass drummer from 2002 marched SCV Cadets in 2003, Trevor marched in the bass line before playing baritone for Crossmen, and Chelsea played sop at Renegades before auditioning for SCV this year.) We all know this has been happening in DCA for decades. Has this happened in Dream, too, Mike? Anyone know if any RCR vets went to march juniors?

DCI should realize that the all-age corps are not any kind of threat to the juniors at all. In fact, the three all-age corps in 2003 put up some $$$ for scholarships for junior corps members. In the long run, the all-age corps are good for DCI-P and other regions where all-age corps compete.

This was a bad move on DCI's part.

Seems pretty clear to me...

Now this from me to the DCI-P coordinator. This took place AFTER the Orlando meeting, and it was only at THAT meeting that we heard there could be a problem....we were NOT informed by Dci in ANY form that there could be a problem when we started the corps (and I started contacting DCI about it) in November.

I need a clarification about recruiting....

Is there, in reality, a hard and fast rule that the All-Age corps cannot recruit anyone who is under DCI age?? I have been told there actually is (and this was the first time I've heard of it...if it's true, no one at DCI thought to let me know this)...yet Renegades has a statement in the recruiting section of their website that potential members must be 18 or older....which implies recruiting of DCI age members.

If this rule exists, I would appreciate getting the actual wording.

And the response....note the amount of informative text here...

there is a gentlemen's agreement not to take members under the age of 18.

That’s all I got back....and that level of response is, unfortunately, typical.

[84BDsop]

Part 2

And the followup email from me (names of people from other corps blanked for privacy):

>

That's what I've always thought.....but the way it was presented to me by

> XXXX and XXXX was that it was an actual rule...a condition on the sr corps

to allow participation. From XXXX (Re my questions that it WAS a gentlemen’s

agreement) "It was in the minutes that were passed out at the last Orlando

meeting. It stated that we had agreed not to actively recruit from the

junior corps age group."

I have not seen the minutes....nothing was ever passed on to me...our rep

went in pretty blind re the DCI-P side of it....so I've yet to actually see

this in writing. From XXXX XXXX on the same subject "The rule to avoid

recruiting junior-corp aged members is official DCI-P policy. This is not

negotiable and was one of the primary messages given to your rep at the DCI

meeting."Again...I have yet to see this...and there's a difference between a

gentlemen's agreement and official policy. The way XXX and XXXX present it,

it's looking like the Srs as a whole are threatened with not being allowed

into shows if we recruit...yet all accept members who are DCI age...in 05

Dream's entire battery was DCI age....The members I have will not be able to

-- for the most part -- be able to do a DCI corps because of the time and

financial commitments...En Garde offers a program where they can afford to

do corps....plus with the move of Mystikal to Long Beach, there's no nearby

corps presence for the Valley. Those people who would not march DCI, but

who CAN march En Garde, are not causing any difficulties for the DCI corps

by not marching them....they aren't going to go there anyway.

If ANYONE comes to us wanting to march, I'm not going to turn them away,

especially if going elsewhere presents a financial or time burden to that

person. Getting over 22s to join is hard enough for an established corps like

Dream....not being able to march whoever comes to us would kill En

Garde...and that's not how it's supposed to be.

We haven't done any active recruiting since October anyway, and the jr corps

were having membership issues well before I started up. It doesn't help

that three of them are practically on top of each other.

And again....the oh-so informative r3esponse...

Don't recruit jr corps age kids

And thereb won't be any questions

This, of course does nothing to actually address the issue...as none of my arguments were even considered. I’ll point out that other Sr corps have made the same argument....with much the same result.

This from a California Sr corps staffer, in reference to the agreement:

It was in the minutes that were passed out at the last Orlando meeting. It stated that we had agreed not to actively recruit from the junior corps age group

And this from ANOTHER staffer (same corps, in fact)...please particular attention to the last paragraph:

I don't care for the agreement either. It’s a stupid situation that the directors in DCI-P need to

'get over' because the rest of the country is a different situation. Example is that Bucs is basically a feeder corps for Cadets. The average age for 'all age' corps is much younger than the DCI-P directors will admit or acknowledge.

However, our situation is that unless we appear to be non threatening to Junior Corps' membership, we will loose our ability to have a place to perform. Plain and simple! You simply can't tell me that you want a corps with no place to perform. Abide by these agreements, or we loose a place to play. Period.

This from Darkman re the non-recruiting clause (which, as a reminder, I was never informed of and SHOULD have been)

We all have that same clause out here for DCI-Pacific Region...

So there IS, in fact, the threat of the California Srs losing their ability to perform at DCI shows out here if they don’t toe that recruitment line....a threat that’s been in place for several years.

As for any threat a DCA corps poses to DCI...

From Darkman:

Dream has have several member move on to the Junior ranks in the past years.

This year alone, 3 went to VK and 1 to PC... We even had one of our Lead Sop go try out for BD this year.... thumbup.gif

We just can't recruit those who are of age 16-18, but we don't turn them away if they want to march with us...

This from someone on another board (although he forgot that RCR folded):

I think DCI feels as DCA is a threat to them (I don't blame them.. I mean if you think about it.. DCA is more drum corps than DCI is)

They are worried that if there is a DCA corps in the area of a DCI corps, that the DCA corps will be recruiting members from the DCI pool. DCA is "senior corps", although it is now really considered to be an all age corps. DCI really can't do anything about it either, BUT because DCA is a lot bigger on the east coast than the west, the DCA corps have to perform at DCI venues in California in order to get any shows in. This is where DCI can screw DCA corps because they can deny the performances (I'm assuming) because it's a DCI show, and not a DCA show. Even when it comes down to judging, the DCA corps usually get screwed out in California (but that's for a different thread)

This is where DCI has it wrong.. How many DCA corps are there in California? Renegades, SoCal Dream, River City Regiment. That's it. Renegades only allows 18 and over members, so that just leaves Dream and RCR. I don't think there are many under 21 members at RCR from what I remember, so that really only leaves Dream, who has maybe 5 or 6 under 21 members.. who are all local, and who ALL go on to march junior corps after a season or two of Dream. If anything, DCI should be HAPPY that there are DCA corps in the area that allow under 21 year old members because most of them WILL go to DCI before their age out, and those who don't wouldn't be going anyways. By DCI punishing a DCA corps from forming or recruiting is only going to hurt themselves in the long run.

Same guy...different post:

They can't stop a DCA corps from recruiting.. but in California they can punish DCA corps by not allowing them to participate in DCI shows.. if that happens, all of the DCA corps will basically not be able to compete, and will fold.

In California the DCA corps only compete in DCI shows.. it is not a guaranteed thing, it is not something DCI has to allow.. which means, they could pull the plug on it. In the other DCA parts of the country, there are DCA shows, and those DCA corps typically do not compete at DCI venues. California is a little different, and because of that DCI does have that power in the means of consequence.

Are you detractors getting any of this yet??

[84BDsop]

Part 3

In response to a question directed at me:

Sam, thought of this the other day and got me wondering. What happens in Callie-land rolleyes.gif if a minor walks up to any of the All-Age corps and says "I want to join"? In this case, it's not recruiting but the young person decides this on their own. Is there any heartburn from DCI-P, is the young person directed to the Jr corps or asked why they want to join an All-ager. Or are they taken in with no problems and no questions asked

If we were still a sr corps and someone walked up to us wanting to join, his or her age is irrelevant...that person approached US and would be accepted....much as Darkman said Dream would do.

Again, from another board:

DCI needs to not have panic attacks about DCA corps that actually HELP recruit kids that are unable to make auditions for a DCI corps and have an opportunity to utilize their talents for a DCI corps by marching in a Sr. corps for a season. This "technique" is very much used on the east coast. Most of the people marching in Sr. corps back east are under 25 with a significant amount of performers under 21. In '05, one of the Renegades bass drum players barely missed auditions that year for SCV and he was able to march in the Renegades to increase his drumming skills for the next year and he got a spot in SCV in '06. No wonder DCI doesn't allow the FEW sr. corps in CA to perform at intermission or under lights. Most folks aren't even in the stands when the sr, corps perform in the hot sun before the C corps. After all, they are doing us a favor by letting us perform at all at a DCI sanctioned show. I do appreciate this, but, maybe some people actually buy tickets to see a particular sr. corps.

And this from me, illustrating the utter lack of logic in our situation:

The bizzare thing is...if En Garde -- as a Sr corps -- recruits a 19 year old who can't afford to march anywhere else, it's taking away a potential member from VK, Impulse, etc....but if En Garde as a JUNIOR corps recruits the same person for the same reason, that's OK???

There's no diff between the recruiting and the effects on any other corps....the rationale for not allowing srs to recruit jr aged kids is weak sauce.

it was termed a "gentlemen's agreement" not to accept jr kids....but that holds no water considering jr aged kids have ALWAYS been in Sr corps, and a gentlemen's agreement is NOT an enforcable rule....unles you start threatening to not allow a corps into shows because of that recruiting.

Now to address the detractors who, for some reason seem to think that what we did spells the doom of Sr corps....

Well, use the "Poor Me" all you want. (BIG snip, because you were rambling)

So save the "Poor Me". Look at the Renegades and SoCal or Frontier, CorpsVets, MCL and COPY. To H E double hockey sticks with DCI and that kind of mind set.

Same guy, diff post:

The reply to this is.

"IT SHALL BE YOU. AND, PLEASE MAKE IT IN WRITING!"

I would ABSOLUTELY love to see DCI come out OFFICIALLY & PUBLICLY and say to, SoCal Dream and Renegades. "You are NO LONGER allowed to be in a DCI show on the West Coast. because you have DCI Eligible people."

But that will not happen. Two reasons.

1 - It will cause a problem in the rest of the country. Where people sometimes use DCA to get into Drum Corps. Then later as they improve. they move into DCI. Like a training ground.

2 - They flat do NOT have the Nerve. Do not think they would want to start a fight with a GROWING Oganization like DCA IS. Both the Top Division and Class A are adding Corps Every year. While they (DCI) are having an evr larger amount of groups folding Everyyear. Just look at the ever shrinking Div I World Class. Div II and Div III had to added together to make a very unfair (to Div III groups) Open Class.

In fact, I believe DCI DOES have the nerve to act in a manner they believe will protect themselves of they feel threatened...you are not out here...you are not dealing with DCI-P...you are not assisting with the corps who are still fairly new to the game and are perceived as encroaching into DCI’s sandbox.

I an not crying “poor me”....I am being realistic based on the information I have.

I guess we can say "shame on them" for acting and announcing that they were going to be all-age before they thought enough about their direction and knew exactly who was going to be there.

We had planned to be all-age from day one....we had plenty of over-22s both at Open House and on the mailing list....but you can’t force someone to join up....what would you have e do...go door-to-door with a baseball bat and force oldsters to go to practice???

Then again, had 40 over 21 folks showed up at rehearsal do you think that they would have switched to a DCI corps?

Had 40 over 22s shown up on a consistent basis, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

You people outside of California MUST realize that our situation is somewhat unique. And since some of you seem to be missing the point...I’ll use words of one syllable so you can understand.

THERE-ARE-NO-DCA-SHOWS-OUT-HERE! THERE-IS-NO-DCA-WEST-YET. DCA-HAS-CHANGED-THEIR-RULES-SO-THIS-CAN-BE-ONE-DAY...BUT-NOT-NOW!

THUS-THE-CA-DCA-CORPS-HAVE-NO-CHOICE-BUT-TO-MARCH-IN-DCI-SHOWS. THIS-MEANS-DCI-CALLS-THE-SHOTS!

*Back to polysyllables*

WHAT part of this do you people not understand??? If En Garde – as a Sr corps – was to tell DCI-P “screw you, we’re going to recruit anyone we feel like” that could #### it up for ALL CA Srs...Renegades, SoCal Dream, Kingsmen, AND En Garde....and with no shows out here, it’d be VERY doubtful they’d want to practice their ##### off for one or 2 shows across the country...you’d never see them.

Yeah....THAT would make sense, now wouldn’t it??

IF there was a DCA-West region that ran it’s own shows, this would not be an issue, since that would be where En Garde would perform....but some of you people are missing he point that there ARE no other drum corps shows in California EXCEPT for DCI ones....and all the #####ing, pissing, and moaning is not going to change that.

I’m sorry that some of you have such an axe to grins with DCI...but En Garde will NOT be responsible for causing the Srs to have no place to march just to satisfy your sense of moral outrage and righteous indignation.

FOR THE RECORD: I did NOT make the change from Sr to Jr myself....the corps AS A WHOLE voted on the change and it was unanimous.

You wanna come out here and tell my jr kids that they’re destroying Sr corps? Go one...I wanna see one of you guys do it.

Until then, unless you’re actually out HERE in California, dealing with those issues unique to corps that are 3000 miles away from almost every other DCA show out there...until YOU have to deal with DCI-P’s policies, you're comments are ignorant at best, and I am militantly indifferent to your detractions.

I believe that the policy towards the srs out here is paranoid and short-sighted....a well-established sr presence can help the local Jrs...just look at back east....but until DCI opens it’s eyes, we have NO CHOICE but to play by their rules.

Period, stop...end of discussion.

[MarimbasaurusRex]

FOR THE RECORD: I did NOT make the change from Sr to Jr myself....the corps AS A WHOLE voted on the change and it was unanimous.

For the record: It was not quite unanimous. I wasn't there for any vote, had to work and no one told me there would be a vote on this, and it was not addressed or determined in a board meeting before presentation to the membership. I personally disagree with the decision, but my reasons have nothing to do with how DCI deals with Sr. corps.

Also for the record: I'll be ending my participation with En Garde. It's ridiculous and foolish to be publicly slamming DCI over their policies a mere month before the corps evaluation. Good luck with that.

[JimF-LowBari]

Wow I've heard California ia a whole "different world". Whole thing proves that DC is different out there too.

Thanks for the info Sam even if I don't agree with a lot of what's going on. At least a minor can join an All Age corps if they choose to.

[CorpsBuff]

Sam,

I understand that the West Coast is a completely different animal than the East Coast. I was just trying to provide an arguement for both sides of the story.

You have yourself in a no-win situation (as I see it). On one side you have some very upset people that say "Why have you disowned all of these over 22 people who wanted to march or those under 22 who couldn't afford to march". On the other hand you have to think about what is best for the activity and those members who will actually be marching (There's no point in having a drum corps if you can't perform). It really sucks on all sides but I guess starting an adventurous undertaking such as this you kinda had to expect it.

I have one question though, how long was "En Garde" planned out to be a drum corps? It seems to me that a lot of drum corps (at least over here in the east) take numerous years before they even see the competitive field. Of course being "outside of California" I don't know how much planning and homework was done on the situation but perhaps if a little more time was taken in planning and preperation this whole situation wouldn't have happened. Again I do not know if all these things that were mentioned by DCI-P were known to the executives of En Garde before they decided to form the corps but I think it would have helped to totally know where DCI-P stood on the situation before announcing as an all-age corps.

That being said I hope that some day we can all sit around the buses with a beer and laugh about all of this.

Best of luck to En Garde no matter who their membership is.

Edited March 11, 2008 by CorpsBuff

[Scerpella]

Frankly, I think if DCI were to punish existing DCA corps in CA for the recruiting practices of a new corps not even yet affiliated with DCA, they would be opening themselves up for an injunction or lawsuit.

I also think this indicates the writing is on the wall. DCA will become the home of many more junior age kids for the reasons enumerated in this and other threads, mainly the economics of it, and also because DCI will continue moving towards its model of the 8 touring supercorps which will essentially become high level glorified marching bands. It will become prohibitively and progressively more difficult to become a member of the remaining DCI corps, and as has been stated in the "void" thread there will be many kids who still prefer the corps experience.

DCA will continue to skew younger, more corps will begin to see their survival depends on limited touring and programs that dont have the economic demands of DCI, and will see DCA membership as their only option. The question is whether current DCA leadership will be accepting of this potentially transformative change or instead work to keep in a Northeastern boys club. A potental solution would be the creation of a seniors and juniors division within DCA.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Scerpella

[niki@hcb.org]

Sam just do what's best for you and your corps whatever that may be..know your heart's in the right place so what else matters really?

Sent you a pm..would like to discuss openly without being flamed or moderated..if I've learned nothing else, it's that everyone's an authority..

Sorry you seem to be in such a tough spot, but you'll make it work I know it

[DCIHasBeen]

Also, there's a reason why DCI-P is not putting these policies in writing ... These issues skirt legality and acknowledging them in writing could put DCI-P in an actionable position for restraint of trade or (something similar.)

DCI has become a monopoly in this part of the country and they are starting to abuse their position with the kinds of practices that lead to laws protecting business from monopolistic practices.

Whatever En Garde does to survive is one thing and is their business, but the bigger picture stinks in general.

[84BDsop]

Also, there's a reason why DCI-P is not putting these policies in writing ... These issues skirt legality and acknowledging them in writing could put DCI-P in an actionable position for restraint of trade or (something similar.)

I'm not so certain about that angle....there's no "trade" being restrained (since "restraint of trade" implies a commercial enterprise).

I doubt such an angle would hold up in a court anyway...the Sr corps are NOT part of the DCI charter...they belong to a different organization and only perform at DCI shows because there's no other place to go...but they're not REALLY part of DCI...more like someone who pops over to your house and stays awhile because he's got nowhere else to go.

If DCA-W ever gets going, I wonder if the Srs will pull out of DCI shows entirely or simply add performances on a DCA schedule...I could definitely see a DCA show or three in California after all the DCI corps leave the state for the rest of tour. The fans would get more shows and the corps more reads on their performances before DCA...not to mention getting a later read for better prelims seeding.